, regardless, great OP

I know you understand this, but just to be clear for others: just because shoving is hand or chip profitable does NOT mean it is reciprocally profitable. (i.e., you can make profitable shoves all night long and still lose money to someone who selects the better alternatives). All it really tells you is that you shouldn't fold.

This isn't going to win me poster of the year or anything, but I don't really want to go into all the details, except to say LOL that you would think I was talking about K2s.

Anyway, I generally agree that playing tougher players can change OOP hand values, but I think it's much more smooth than you're suggesting: that is, virtually all hands that you call with OOP lose some amount of value when you're playing a good player vs. a bad, generically (of course, if you're talking about a specific kind of bad, then hands that are targeted in a way to exploit their weakness go up in value relative to others). So as your opponent gets better, the pool of hands you should 3-bet AI instead of smooth-calling grows, since the 3-betting profit stays relatively the same. However, I don't think the hands you "lose" as calling options are necessarily the ones you think. There may be a bunch of borderline cases, where my results have been because my opposition has been too weak, or because I'm just a super-genius at postflop play or whatever. But a lot of hands that play very poorly postflop at 100+BB deep are some of the most profitable hands postflop 25BB deep. And a lot of the hands that are very profitable postflop at 100+ are total loss-leading dogs at 25. And they're not close.

To qualify, for the empirical side of my research, I've looked at stakes from $40 to $550, and compared how hand values change at different levels, though that is only a rough approximation for opponent strength. My most thorough data is around the $100-220 level, fwiw.

If you want to discuss any of this more specifically, PM me and maybe we can exchange some ideas one on one.

None of the analysis I've done is beyond anyone with PT3 and excel.

This makes sense because the deeper the stacks the more opportunities there are for postflop betting, which further weakens bad postflop hands. I don't think PrimordialAA was suggesting the opposite though, rather than 25bbs is deep enough that they start to get difficult to play postflop. You shouldn't be flatting A6o at 100bbs or 25 bbs.

For the record, I haven't said anything one way or the other about A6o. But regardless, my point was that I believe the common opinions and intuitions on the subject that many people have -- even some very strong players -- aren't necessarily backed up by the empirical evidence. So, no offense, but neither your opinion nor primordial's are all that important to me (at least in this area).

Very good post, Steve.

sry to make a sick bump here, I was doing a little check and I got some question regard these spots

http://www.pokerspreadsheets.com/spr...calculator.xls

and I found some "glitches" (well idk, glitches is not the right term) btw...
I was using the file above to understand certain situations and I check the first spot that OP made (shoving 22 against a 2/3 opener and 10,4 calling range)

First of all, pokerstove equity is different (obv non that much)



instead 37,94%

then, I checked the equity and I got this



While the total equity is pretty much the same, the folding equity is a quite bit different... in the excel file we got 168,81 while in the OP post we got 126,61...
The equity if called is -39,21 in the spreadsheet and - 45,57 in the post

Since I checked the calculations in the spreadsheet and they seem fine to me, I'd like to understand why some points are different, specially the FE...
ty guys and sorry again for the sick bump

Excellent post. One thing I'm curious about: If we know our opponent is simply folding the lowest part of his range, isn't his calling range going to be present more often when he raises in the first place? - simply because the lowest part of his range is folded pre before any 3bet takes place?

If say, 75% of his combinations aren't in his calling range, isn't a % of that 75% gone before a 3bet takes place? I think we need to find out his open-folding range before we can decide how often he is calling our shove.

if he's opening 2/3 of the times he's actually folding his bottom range

I have mentioned it before I think, but there's a math error in the OP where I assume that folding is -50 cEV, not 0. As for the equity calculations, I'm not quite sure what's wrong -- I'll look into it. I may ask a mod to edit the correct numbers into the OP once I get around to checking them.

Thanks for the comments.

ty to u
btw I sent you a new pm, with a new image that explain what is wrong (for me)

Love the thread. Just read it and i am sure I have a few leaks to work on.

Was wondering if there is any articles/threads or videos on our calling range for this same situation.

Assume we are the button we min raised and Villain Jams....I need to work on ironing out what range of hands are best to call with at certain stack sizes.

If anyone has any advice and can point me in the right direction that would be great. Thanks,

That very highly depends on villain's tendency to three-bet preflop, just like these tables depend on villain's tendency to raise pre-flop. I can potentially make a basic thread describing this if you'd like.

Also there's threads with spreadsheets on endgame theory that may help.

Thanks, I should be alright so don't worry about it. I am fooling around with the calc on husng, its helping me a bit.

i do not understand, i putted on sitngo wizard the 3bet shove with JTs against a 66.7% raiser with 26.1% call and it said the shove still would be profitable (+13 chips on a 500 x 500 chips battle on a superturbo hu blind 10-20, in the words 25BB x 25BB). inst sing wiz good for interpret this math?

with 78s i would loose only 15 chips on a unbelivable 70% raise 36.7% call!! this range call is the looser i can imagine! is the nash range shove!!! better than lose 20 on folding! inst shove or flatting opitional? (agaist a 66.7% raise still not bad: -19chips)

I entered the approximately same scenario to the 3-bet shoving Excel spreadsheet and you're winning ~0.71BB/hand. I don't know the exact answer if SNGWiz is good for calculating 3-bet shoving ranges or not, but the hand you posted if most definitely profitable to shove there.

//Edit: With 78s you're losing 0.86BB/hand in the long run taking into consideration the other parameters you gave.

in the words, not so bad!!! but flatting is really better...its a hand that flops well...=)

amazing post

great post