HU SNGs GTO questions - Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Two Plus Two Forums Poker Strategy No Limit Tournaments Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos

HU SNGs GTO questions

Post Reply Subscribe

...

06-18-2020 , 05:38 PM

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

I've been reading some GTO stuff about HU SNGs and some of it seems a bit shocking to me and I wanted to ask some questions to make sure I don't miss-interpret the strategy

Q1.
HU Hyper, 25bb starting stack, unknown opponent, 1st hand, Villan minraises:
Am I really just supposed to 3bet jam 50% in this spot, right off the bat, just to cancel his autoprofit?

Quote

06-18-2020 , 07:39 PM

tjobim

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 447

GTO 3b 24ish % (iirc).

Quote

06-18-2020 , 09:48 PM

For Sjovt

newbie

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavulon

I've been reading some GTO stuff about HU SNGs and some of it seems a bit shocking to me and I wanted to ask some questions to make sure I don't miss-interpret the strategy

Q1.
HU Hyper, 25bb starting stack, unknown opponent, 1st hand, Villan minraises:
Am I really just supposed to 3bet jam 50% in this spot, right off the bat, just to cancel his autoprofit?

No.

The calculation is that if villain FOLDS by more than 50% then you can make an auto profit by minraises - even if you did not have cards.

Those kind of reasonings of minimum-defence frequencies are very old school. They have very little to do with GTO. They are also commonly called "1 minus alpha" frequencies.

Quote

06-19-2020 , 04:09 PM

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

I read it in a HU GTO book and this calculation seem to confirm it

https://hands.holdemresources.net/?id=1j6z6ha0yp5a6

Nash says to open minraise almost 100% of Buttons and then for SB to 3bet jam almost 50% - untill there are grounds to deviate/exploit.

I still don't like it tho lol, I've seen people do it againts me and I marked them as overaggro

Quote

06-19-2020 , 04:27 PM

XXIV

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 162

That simulation ignores postflop.

Quote

06-19-2020 , 04:30 PM

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

If I 3bet jam 25bbs postflop does not matter.

But I still don't like it.
If I do it with monsters - I lose value, If I exclude monsters - my range is capped

Quote

06-19-2020 , 04:33 PM

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

Maybe I should defend 50% by mixing in some flat calls, 3bet-bluffs and 3bet-calls/jams?

Quote

06-20-2020 , 03:09 AM

Duncelanas

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 6,333

A good SB player isn't raising close to 95% 25bb deep and the ev of flatting isn't represented in the calculation you posted.

You should not 3bet 50%. You should not defend 50% vs Mr, it should be more than that as more than 50% of hands are profitable defends vs mr. Most of those defends will be flats, with some 3b jams and some 3bnai hands as well.

Minimum defense frequency thinking is only super relevant on the river and you shouldn't really be thinking about it too much in general.

Quote

06-20-2020 , 05:06 AM

Gcm1998

grinder

Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 466

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavulon

If I do it with monsters - I lose value, If I exclude monsters - my range is capped

When you are all in having a capped range doesnt matter which is why at low spr, both postflop and preflop there are situations in which your shoving range is actually made up of medium-ish strenght hands, while the super strong hands prefer to slowplay.

Quote

06-21-2020 , 07:14 PM

#10

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncelanas

You should not 3bet 50%. You should not defend 50% vs Mr, it should be more than that as more than 50% of hands are profitable defends vs mr. Most of those defends will be flats, with some 3b jams and some 3bnai hands as well.

Are we still talking about HU Hypers where max eff stack is 25bbs and BB is OOP?

Quote

06-21-2020 , 07:52 PM

#11

Vvvvv

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 544

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavulon

Are we still talking about HU Hypers where max eff stack is 25bbs and BB is OOP?

He was prolly trying to say, that you can and you should defend way more than 50 %, when facing a minraise 25 bb deep OOP.

Quote

06-21-2020 , 08:37 PM

#12

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

Yes.
You guys must have insane winrates

I wouldn't know how to construct a balanced defending range of I dunno 65% or something

Or does it not have to be balanced?

Quote

06-21-2020 , 10:09 PM

#13

tjobim

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 447

Yea, you def want to have all spectres of hands to cover the dif kind of boards.

Quote

06-22-2020 , 05:56 AM

#14

Duncelanas

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 6,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vvvvv

He was prolly trying to say, that you can and you should defend way more than 50 %, when facing a minraise 25 bb deep OOP.

Yep, this is right

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavulon

Yes.
You guys must have insane winrates

I wouldn't know how to construct a balanced defending range of I dunno 65% or something

Or does it not have to be balanced?

It's relatively balanced. We should be calling hands like 96o, 85o, any two suited cards, and so on. Vs a very wide mr range we have a lot of profitable continues. And then we also have some jams and some nai 3bets.

Quote

06-23-2020 , 05:02 AM

#15

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

Got it, thanks a lot

Quote

06-23-2020 , 06:44 PM

#16

Pavulon

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 455

I was gonna start constructing my 3bet ranges but

Question #2

If In HU equilibrium the profitability of only playing push or fold is at 1bb-7bb stacks and that's where I should never minraise-fold (just push or fold)
then
at what stack sizes the profitability of 3bet-folds ends? (and If choosing to 3bet it should always be a 3bet shove)

Quote

Post Reply Subscribe

...