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HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr

05-22-2013 , 08:57 AM
I started shoving a lot more when blinds are 15/30. So far it worked out quite well but i wanna make sure that i am doing it right. I think against Villain who minraises 50%+ at 15/30 i can shove any broadway and T9s+ or is that too loose?
Now that i see the hand again i think i should have just flat called it.

PokerStars - $1.44+$0.06|15/30 NL (2 max) - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 14.83 BB
SB: 18.5 BB (VPIP: 53.49, PFR: 45.24, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 53)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J Q

SB raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 14.83 BB and is all-in, SB calls 12.83 BB

Flop: (29.67 BB, 2 players) J 6 5

Turn: (29.67 BB, 2 players) 8

River: (29.67 BB, 2 players) A

Hero shows J Q (One Pair, Jacks) (Pre 42%, Flop 80%, Turn 75%)
SB shows 7 A (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 58%, Flop 20%, Turn 25%)
SB wins 29.67 BB
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-22-2013 , 10:51 AM
Don't b results oriented. But I feel this could b a flat. He's nt even opening 50%pre and sample size is nt small either
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-22-2013 , 12:22 PM
we assume that villain is opening 50% of his hands:
22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J4s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o +,K5o+,Q7o+,J7o+,T8o+,98o thats 666 hands

now if he calls a shove with A7s lets say that this is the bottom of his range, so his calling range is:

55+,A7s+,KQs,A8o+,KQo 176 combinations

So he calls with 176 hands out of 666 that makes 26% and he folds 74%

QJo has 35.94% equity against his calling range

So the expected value of my shove :

EV(shove)= 2.5bbx0.74+0.26x(0.3594x29.67bb-0.6406x14.33bb)=
=1.85+0.26x(10.66-9.17)=2.2bb

to find the equity where we are break even we do the equation to zero it gives, that at 16,4% equity
we have the break even point, so 23o has 26,76% equity againt his calling range so its plus EV to shove any2, interesting
hmm

but we dont look for plus EV , we look for maximal value of every hand, so its just the question if you can play your hand
better postflop, or do you have an edge?

If he sees that we push every hand he widens his calling range, so we assume:

22+,A4s+,K9s+,Q9s+,JTs,A5o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo QJo has 41.6% equity

thats 330 cards which is slightly 50%
so the EV now:

EV(shove)=2.5bbx0.50+0.50(0.416x29.67bb-0.584x14.33)=1.25+0.50(12.3-8.37)=3.215
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-22-2013 , 03:19 PM
if u have a broad 3bet shoving range u do realize you will have greater variance and edges decrease right? unless you're playing nits who fold anything but good hands, 3bet-shoving your range is not ideal. why turn an excellent postflop hand like QJ into a shove pre? In this ex., if u flat pre, you can take it away multiple ways, learn to outplay opponent postflop and that will reduce variance and increase edge. But you could definitely play the way u describe, not worth it though.
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 04:39 AM
Very nice thoughts. Thx for sharing and helping a noob. Next time its def a flat.

@bitang: appreciate ur effort, awesome. However equation should look like this i think:
EV(shove)= 2.5bbx0.74+0.26x(0.3594x17,33bb-0.6406x14.33bb)=
=1.85+0.26x(10.66-9.17)=0,99bb

right?
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 05:24 AM
Bitang's equation should be correct, since 29.67bb is the size of the pot if the villain calls our shove.
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 05:53 AM
just flat unless villain openning dunno like 70%
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 06:10 AM
none against 60% opener and like top 23-24% calling range the ev of jamming is a one bb better than folding,what do you think the ev when flat?
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 06:16 AM
idk but I think it should be better than b/e, at least from my small samples Im doing better flatting it than 3b jamming(3b jam is ~ b/e).
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 06:33 AM
OK,I guess the JQs is much closer to jamming
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yendor
Bitang's equation should be correct, since 29.67bb is the size of the pot if the villain calls our shove.
Yes its two times the effective stack

For example: I have 10bb
You have 12bb

and I have 30% equity

if we go all-in I win 30% of the time, because im shorter so I win 0.3x20bb which is 6bb
so our ev is-4bb
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 09:52 AM
Think about this:

0,3*(20) - 0,7 *10 = 6-7 = -1 , wrong

0,3*(10) -0,7*10 = 3-7= -4 , true

u cannot win what u already have, thats why we have to take 1 time eff stack (+pot, if there is)
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote
05-23-2013 , 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogar
Think about this:

0,3*(20) - 0,7 *10 = 6-7 = -1 , wrong

0,3*(10) -0,7*10 = 3-7= -4 , true

u cannot win what u already have, thats why we have to take 1 time eff stack (+pot, if there is)

if you put it in the middle its not yours anymore, you have to win it too
HT 1,5 -3,5$, shove over mr Quote

      
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