When explaining the Nash push/call HU charts on holdemresources (page linked at end of post) they state

"It is important to keep in mind that this is not the solution for the full game where limps and smaller raises are also available. The push-or-fold solution is generally assumed to be very close to the solution of the full game up to around 8bb. In practice the strategy can likely be used at least until 10bb without being too exploitable."

So I understand if I'm acting first I can follow the pusher chart, but what if I'm acting second and my opponent opts to limp or raise less than all in? How do I use Nash from there?


http://www.holdemresources.net/h/pok...une/usage.html

you don't.

Also bare in mind that Nash is +EV 6.8BB eff stack or lower, otherwise it's only telling you that pushing would be better than folding and that it is unexploitable (even if -EV)

you don't use the push/fold-call charts for anything besides push/fold-call. this also means you shouldn't use push/fold-call charts for calling against an opponent who isn't ONLY pushing or folding preflop.


push/fold (only) from the SB is post-blinds 0-EV at 7.8bb (close ) and +EV below that, at equilibrium.

*if you're only pushing or folding.

ya I know it's around 7bb couldn't remember exactly. By the way holdem resource charts (and generally others) are BEFORE posting the blinds


I was simply trying to tell him that if your hand is under the Nash number there is always a better option than folding

I'm not sure I fully understand. You're saying not to use the push/fold charts against an opponent who isn't only pushing or folding, but holdemresources is saying that starting around 8bb (or 7.8bb as you say) push/fold is close to optimal for the full game.

if you are the SB it is probably very close to optimal under 8bb (meaning you can probably do better than the push/fold game but not significantly)but in the BB you are not the first one to act and therefore you cannot force SB to play the push/fold game. the push/fold game Nash solution are useless if SB decides that he is not playing the push/fold game.

ps: well not completely useless actually because if SB minraises a lot you end up in the reverse situation; like if you were the SB but with half stacks. Even if he doesn't minR 100% 1/2 stack SB chart can be a good guide to help you decide what to 3BS

Could you please verify or refute the following to make sure I understand fully:


*If under 7.8bbs effective when an opponent shoves on the button, that still does not necessarily mean I should look at the Nash calling chart since his shove does not imply that he's playing shove-or-fold (i.e. maybe there are hands he's still willing to limp or raise less than all-in, but it just so happened that the current hand was one that was a shove).

*If I do have my opponent pegged for playing push-or-fold and he pushes less than 7.8bb effective I should call according to the chart, regardless of his perceived shoving range. (If this is correct, I don't see how this is necessarily optimal/close to it; what if for example he's been playing very tight-passive and there's no reason to believe his perceived range would have change? Nash seems too wide here, no?)

You should always call based on opponents' range, not nash. However against competent regs that should mean same as nash.

Being unexploitable doesn't mean optimal against opponents playing inferior strategies. If you shove/fold with nash under 7.8bb, it means that you will always at least breakeven against opponent, ie. he cannot exploit your strategy with any counter-strategy. However, to maximize your EV against your opponent both your pushing and shoving should be based on his ranges and you should be playing optimal counter-strategy to his, not unexploitable strategy.