So are we minraise/calling or openshoving these kind of hands 8, 9 and 10 big blinds deep?

this is not a hand that benefits from inducing so open shove will have better expectations in almost every case. actually after playing with ranges in icmizer it's clearly a really boarderline hand to mr/call with, often -EV vs tighter opponents.

also that's a type of hand that is cosidered standard limp @~10bbs, unless u are playing vs someone that attacks limps frequently

Depends on villain. if villain 3bets 20% and folds rest then it's a no brainer minraise. if villain 3bets wide but doesnt attack limps frequently (rare) then limp is better. so on and so fourth. all villain dependent.

I'd always openshove unless villain is passive/bad enough that I'd feel comfortable mr/folding.

And villain needs to be 3betshoving ~40% before we get the odds to call after mr so against lot/most people it'd be a mr/fold rather than mr/call.

by who?

I just jam, and imo it is standard play

lots of ppl i've been talking to, also pretty sure that mers advocates doing so but I see that nowadays it's bad fashion to be so called 'mers-clone', uncreative reg, right?

so u all guys limp only to trap this deep or what?

i don't think that being a mers clone would make you an uncreative reg, basically the opposite.

but i also don't think that mers says it's a standard limp 10bb deep. maybe in the 12-13bb range, but then again there is no readless in poker, so overall that statement seems incorrect to me.

for the second part: if i really haven't tested out how villain reacts to a limp then yeah, my limping range is strongly weighted towards trapping hands. but i usually limp a hand or two before reaching that stackdepth.

dont see a reason to do anything but openjam here

yeah I try to do the same - limp few hands to see if villain likes limps or not - and in case that he would allow me to play lots of limp pots I see limp as a close option to open shove but with significantly less variance involved. But I guess I was wrong as everyone here loves to just jam this hand.

Anything but jam without serious reads is terrible imo...

Although Im fairly drunk atm

you save yourself w/ this

If you could prove the avg villain calls tighter than Nash I think you have an argument, but if not, then I think jamming at 10bbs is def a mistake vs the majority, jamming at 9bbs will be a mistake as well, and 8bbs I am not so sure, but it is prolly a mistake.

Merry Christmas

I won't even bother checking but I'm pretty sure NE says Q8o is shove for way over 10bb, probably almost 15.

Anyway easily deep enough that you can openshove it with any stacksizes you'd be openshoving with.

actually avg population calls tighter than nash from the databases i know

General consensus seems to be to openjam Q8o for ~9bb. Some hands are a bit clearer; KTo for instance is a hand we should be minraise/calling with until 8 big blinds versus the general population, right?

Doesn't everybody attack limps frequently? I know i do, until villain starts trapping.

And I think that most villains call considerably tighter then Nash , at low stakes at least.

the K10 and the Q8 are both openjams everytime. UNLESS you are playing a nit and you can limp the q8 and minbet any flop and win but i prefer jamming, i wouldnt say limping is terrible either depending on opponent.

with k10 u look mad strong minraising, i prefer an open jam you might get called by lighter hands.

That sounds reasonable. Agreed.

Okay, I think there is one thing people don't take into consideration when talking about jamming and calling. Especially villains calling ranges.
There is quite a big difference in 10 BB eff stacks when BB is t20 and when BB is t40.

I think that people forget very much about it.

When you have 10 BB effective stacks at BB = t20, you get a person with 800 chips and a person with 200 chips.
So I believe that if the villain is the one with 800 chips they have a quite different calling range than the situation where the villain is with 200 chips.
It's basically ten BB effective stack at both situations, but in case where villain has 800 chips - what is he risking calling you? Around ~20% equity of his 80% equity. So he is risking a 4th of his stack.
While if they have the 200 chips - they are risking ALL their chips.

It may not be the best way of thinking, but it is normal and I believe that it should be taken into consideration.

Villains tend to have a lot looser calling range when they have the chip lead and you are trying to double up compared to what they have as a calling range when they are the ones trying to double up.

Hope this gives some food for thought.

Wisher I think you make a good point, but I think the opposite is closer to the truth; fish will play tighter when they are winning and looser when they are losing.

we shouldn't be concerned with hands like this whether someone calls wider than NASH because their range expansion will lead them just to be dominated more. See: H20lga well he says this

Merry xmas!!

It probably depends on the level.
At the $3,5s villains tend to be calling very tight when they have their backs to the wall and very wide when they have chips they can risk.

+ I also believe an argument can be made that if we have the big chip lead we can safely make a "bad" call because we will not be losing all of our equity.
I know that in HUSNG cEV is considered = $EV but imo someone having 5 BB is not in the same spot as someone having 5BB in a HU cash game.

For instance, level is 10/20.
Villain has 40 chips and is on the button.
We know villain has AA.
We have T9.
He goes all in. Pure math says we need 25% equity to call in this spot.
We have ~20%.

Still I will happily call every single time.
Why?
What do I lose if I lose the hand? 1 BB. Which is a ~2% equity in the tournament.
What do I win if I win - all the money.

Does anyone believe making this call is bad?
Again - we KNOW opponent has AA.

yes that call is bad.

yay, care to elaborate?
I think risking 2% or our equity for a 15-20% chance to win the game is a pretty good risk-reward ratio, thus I think we should make the call.

Not exactly. It's getting worse up to 40% (Nash says ~36%). So if the guy is calling slightly wider it's worse for us than vs Nash calling range.
Wider than 40% yea, our ev increases.

But anyway we're never losing by open shoving (at worst case ~ -0.4bb) + population is calling way tighter imo, so Q8o is a snapity jam in my book at 10bbs.