Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos Discussion of heads up Sit & Go and Spin and Go poker games. Sponsored by HUSNG.com, the leading heads up poker video site.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-31-2015, 06:13 AM   #1
TheAfterman
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Trying to escape Aggrobot
Posts: 253
Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

I see this play fairly often, and it always seems like a pretty fishy move to me... but villain does seem to hit an annoying amount of the time. I can understand a bluff-jam with a draw hand given the fold equity but calling just seems wreckless to me. Am I missing a trick here or should I be rubbing my hands with glee when I get called? example:

Heads Up Hyper/Hyper Turbo

Hero: Q9o on the button

Hero raises 2BB.
Villain calls.

Flop: 9s 5c 3s

Villain bets 1/2 pot.
Hero goes all in.
Villain calls and turns over Ks7s.

This is about the middle of villains range in these spots. I've seen them call with no overs, crappy gutshots, and also genuine strong draws like open enders + 2 overs.

So which sort of draws are you willing to call a jam with at 15-20BB? What about 8-12BB? Obviously it depends on the villain but what would be your baseline ranges? I tend to fold anything with less than 50% to win (e.g. <13 outs). Am I playing too tight?
TheAfterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 06:45 AM   #2
none888
veteran
 
none888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,461
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

easy call for villain and yes if you fold this hand you are too tight
none888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 07:43 AM   #3
TheAfterman
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Trying to escape Aggrobot
Posts: 253
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

What about the a lesser draw e.g. no overs? What are we basing this decision on? In the hand above I suppose we could say we have 2 over cards if our opponent has only made middle or bottom pair, in which case things look pretty good for us, so it's maybe 60/40 towards calling given he could also have a set or possibly 2 pair.

On the flip side, as hero in the above hand I like to play flops like this aggressively to price out draw hands as there are a lot of scare cards that can come when you have top pair on a low board. Is it better to play slower and accept he might overtake you on the turn or river? Or is fold equity still the best way to go?
TheAfterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 07:43 AM   #4
kobmish
old hand
 
kobmish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Winrate minimizing
Posts: 1,747
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Maths is extremely helpful in these situations. And it's really not very hard, try it!
kobmish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 07:49 AM   #5
TheAfterman
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Trying to escape Aggrobot
Posts: 253
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kobmish View Post
Maths is extremely helpful in these situations. And it's really not very hard, try it!
I think it's the math that's confusing me somewhat. When I pokerstoved a few hands like the one above hero wins between 50 and 60% of the time... which is what I based my assumption that these were bad calls on, and why I would only call with 2 overs + flush/straight. Can you give me some examples of the math you are talking about?
TheAfterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 08:21 AM   #6
none888
veteran
 
none888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,461
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Ok, math for this hand
I will assume its full stacks, so after donking flop villain has to call 21bb to win 50bb, pot odds = 42%
This hand vs your hand has 45% equity, 45% > 42% -> call
none888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 09:32 AM   #7
kobmish
old hand
 
kobmish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Winrate minimizing
Posts: 1,747
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Assign a range (not a single hand) for taking the action, check your equity vs that range in a software and then compare the equity with the pot odds you get (like none888 was kind enough to explain).
kobmish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 10:06 AM   #8
TheAfterman
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Trying to escape Aggrobot
Posts: 253
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Does that mean it's impossible to price out draw hands here? If the best I can do 42% vs 45% equity with a jam then his odds are only going to get more attractive if I bet smaller aren't they?

e.g. If I 3x his flop bet then he has to call 4BB to win 16 = 25% (even better).

So we should never be folding with a flush draw and one over card?
TheAfterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 10:49 AM   #9
TheAfterman
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Trying to escape Aggrobot
Posts: 253
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Another question this raises for me - does that mean we are both playing looser as one player's stack size decreases? E.g. If either one of us has 10BB and the other has 40, then at best I can win 20BB, so I'm calling maybe 6BB to win 20 = 30% pot odds. Therefore all I need is ~7 outs (on the flop) to call (e.g. bottom pair and one overcard)?
TheAfterman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2015, 01:12 PM   #10
none888
veteran
 
none888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,461
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAfterman View Post
Another question this raises for me - does that mean we are both playing looser as one player's stack size decreases? E.g. If either one of us has 10BB and the other has 40, then at best I can win 20BB, so I'm calling maybe 6BB to win 20 = 30% pot odds. Therefore all I need is ~7 outs (on the flop) to call (e.g. bottom pair and one overcard)?
this is true, because of better pot odds you will have to get it in looser
none888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2015, 01:28 AM   #11
Fosprey
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 228
Re: Calling jams with flush/straight draws or overcards?

Pricing out an opponent at this stack depth of a draw is indeed impossible, however that shouldnīt be your goal, if your expectation is to outplay your opponent sometimes you should try to get to turn or river, where you can make them make a mistake.
For example in the hand you played, I donīt thikn you misplayed because I expect villan to donk with bottom pair, very weak draws, and other stuff im crushing that he will call my all in with.
However letīs imagine I have a super read that this particular villain donks are 100% flush draws. Then I would not shove, I would just flat his donk, and try to make him make mistakes on turn and river if possible.
Fosprey is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Đ 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online