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Old 03-25-2021, 09:10 AM   #1
rickroll
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Awkward spot in spin vs fish

early stages of spin

unknown on btn, aggro fish on sb, he's called off 16bb in early stages while 3 handed with hands like k4o in other spins and raises most of the time it comes to him pre - his range if it's folded to him is literally atc

this was for $10 if it makes a difference

btn 15bb
sb villain 12bb
bb hero 22bb

hero dealt QhTc

btn fold

sb min raise to 2bb

hero flats

pot 4bb

flop 7h9c5c

sb bets 2bb
hero flats

pot 8bb

turn 8c

villain jams 8bb

hero?
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:02 PM   #2
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

I am folding the flop.
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Old 03-25-2021, 12:20 PM   #3
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

interesting

guess that means as played easy turn fold yeah?
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:57 PM   #4
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

folding flop
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Old 03-26-2021, 01:00 AM   #5
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

My thinking was with two overs and backdoor prayers it was worth floating since he's betting most of his range here

Was happy with that turn as it have me a ton of outs in the event he had an actual hand but wasn't expecting him to jam despite that in hindsight it's just a psb and should have been anticipated on flop

I folded turn and something about this hand just felt wrong so figured I'd post it

Thanks for the feedback
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Old 03-26-2021, 05:03 AM   #6
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

Can you post villain's stats? Because what you said about his preflop game sounds too general. Also, he might play differently on BTN/BB, compared to SB 3 way.

Anyway, draws and backdoors are not as valuable shallow as they are deeper. Reasoning is simple: you won't get to play multiple streets. Usually you are done after 1/2 streets. Therefore you will underrealize your equity and it will cost you a lot.

Maybe even 3b all-in preflop might work fine, if he was really aggressive and capable of folding mediocre hands.
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Old 03-26-2021, 05:21 AM   #7
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

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Originally Posted by Vvvvv View Post
Can you post villain's stats? Because what you said about his preflop game sounds too general. Also, he might play differently on BTN/BB, compared to SB 3 way.

Anyway, draws and backdoors are not as valuable shallow as they are deeper. Reasoning is simple: you won't get to play multiple streets. Usually you are done after 1/2 streets. Therefore you will underrealize your equity and it will cost you a lot.

Maybe even 3b all-in preflop might work fine, if he was really aggressive and capable of folding mediocre hands.
no stats sadly, but i really should do that, played professionally over a decade ago (i know based of this hh how absurd that sounds lol, games gotten harder) and wanted to just play it casually without a hud or db but now thinking that's a fools errand if even in a $10 spin I find myself uncomfortable at times vs known buttonclickers

everything you said made sense and appreciate the insight, while i'm beating spins for now, it's very much in the variance range where i could be punting and getting lucky and definitely need to make better adjustments (primarily played 300bb deep back in the day so got a lot of bad habits to break)

I wouldn't want to 3! pre since he'd fold out the worse hands and call any face card so it'd be a flip at best for me and it'd at least like to wait until i have an ace to do that to someone able to stack off so light preflop

looking at the equities now of facing a top 60% hand (figured he'd play any Kx+ this way, I'm still behind such a wide range on the flop with only 32% equity, for some reason i thought the turn really helped me but only barely, now just 35% against a combo of basically atc

just something about this hand in particular really bothered me for some reason, i think a lot of it was i unconsciously did something stupid on the flop and then when i thought it got rewarded on the turn i found myself in a horrible spot and forced to fold - gave me a lot to think about

thanks for all the input guys, deeply appreciated, you got this dinosaur thinking clearly again
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Old 03-26-2021, 06:03 PM   #8
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
My thinking was with two overs and backdoor prayers it was worth floating since he's betting most of his range here
I think when you are this short, turn aggression is going to be absurdly high especially on this texture. I don't think you realize your equity well enough to call.
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Old 03-27-2021, 12:01 AM   #9
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

Normally I’d peel flop, I’m always calling this fish if her bets 1.5 but I guess if he bets 2 and is very aggressive on turns maybe it’a a straight up flop fold but feels bit nit the wider his pre flop raise at this stack depth the happier I’d be calling flop but unlikely to get a big sample bs a fish here . On turn it’s deffo a fold although maybe you could make his range crazy enough in equilabs that it’s a call but I would just fold and try find a better spot
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Old 03-27-2021, 12:08 AM   #10
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

According to solver calling with Qc is BE with Tc in hand it’s slightly loosing, but this is against someone with correct pre flop range so that’s the most important thing to think about here because if he hasn’t got bluffs to give up with on turn then just fold flop
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Old 03-28-2021, 03:02 PM   #11
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

Vs someone you have pretty aggro reads that opens wide, any thoughts to just jamming PF here vs their open?
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Old 03-29-2021, 02:37 AM   #12
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

I genuinely considered that, if i were oop or he raised larger than i would have given it more thought

while I've seen him stack off pre with terrible hands, i still didn't think my hand would be much more than a coin flip if he called, meanwhile, i was in position, priced in for a call and had cards with good playability

i have been jamming on him with any two broadway and any ace, and while he does have a fold button, he's called off super light often enough that my he'll call with any face card isn't theory but rather canon by this point

i figured QTo was the bottom of my jamming range at this effective stack, a few bbs less though and I'm ripping it for sure here
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Old 04-08-2021, 09:37 AM   #13
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Re: Awkward spot in spin vs fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRy View Post
Vs someone you have pretty aggro reads that opens wide, any thoughts to just jamming PF here vs their open?
Well, if according to reads range is atc (which is not true), assuming that such person occasionally would trap with nuts (as they tend to do some % of the time), jamming pre has to be the best EV move even against their wide calling range (I don't expect to fold out K4o as mentioned). I certainly would.
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