2nd hand

I can't be bothered to check HH but that might have been me, looks awful familiar, accept I don't often complete blinds, maybe if u did it first hand or we played few games before this one.
I do remember playing a guy with the same pic on avatar as yours.

So anybody folding here? Min4bet in a limped pot we can assume he has something in this spot that does not require fold equity. And even if he had a 9 or a 7 he probably would just push here. Isnt the Min4bet still such a dead giveaway from certain players?

we need to raise preflop for value.

This is why it has become so profitable to limp jam 22-55 and especially Ax vs regs first few hands these days...

It could be a cooler or the hand was just misplayed, but it is hard to say without more info

it is tempting to fold, and under certain conditions it is fine, but for the most part just get the money in

If c/r is the optimal line then you should be happy to get the money in

I wouldn't have raised pre, JTo, J9s I would have but that's probably a leak.
I call flop as we have top pair but the flop smacks a limping range imo.
I would have call a bet on that turn but folded river.
Next time don't post anything after the point you're interested in (ie flop) as it will skew the results.

That min raise on the flop sets off warning bells vs unknown.

So this is reason to raise or I am wrong? You have top pair and u think it is ok to just call on a wet board if opponent has some piece?

Min raise?

Sorry, that one.

Yeah you're right about raising flop but once we get min 3bet I'm not too confident, especially vs fish. It's a ****ty spot and I wished OP didn't post the rest of the hand as I couldn't help looking, I'm sure I'd do something more spewey if I didn't know what happened.

I dont think it matters much that OP posted the rest of the hand.

I played some donks recently that i went into a click-it-back competition, at some point i thought just fk it and i shoved for the rest of the 100 chips or so, never expecting a fold, yet they did.

The difference was the board texture. It were xxy boards where it usually is just so unlikely that anybody has something. Yet this board texture is very different, and you dont see such spew in these spots too often.

Just ask yourself what could HE possibly have in his range that he would play in such a fashion, that WE actually beat with our TP? I can come up with some hands, but none of them we look really good against.

There are a ton of air hands he could take this line w/

I'm getting it in but not too happy about it. As pointed out, the small 3b is often pretty strong but don't think we can find a fold readless.

that's interesting point, I was thinking about it after I saw that play in one game. Do you guys think that this can be better strategy for low pp than openshove?

Against players with certain tendencies - why not. That is, until they catch up and adjust, than its back to shoving again .

Normally when I raise for value on the flop I already have the intention of gii if villian shoves, however the min4bet wreaks so much of a hand that beats ours whether it be the nuts or 2pr that I'd probably just fold.

i agree with 4 bet being suspicious, but so is limp>stab pot, because some aggro players would also stack off with pair+gut shot, also we can't get credit for c/r TP here all the time?
in my expirience if he called 3bet that would be much more suspicious, because villains on that level mostly slow play nuts or 2 pair hands?

This makes it *more* profitable to limp jam these hands vs regs than vs randoms but does not show it is even profitable compared to folding, let alone more than minraising.

All the calcs I have suggest that readless limp/jamming weak ax is worse than open folding and readless vs a reg limp/jamming is going to be about the same as open folding so i'd be careful about doing it just because of some speculative evidence about small parts of villain's complete range. We definitely need reads for limp jamming even vs regs.

even i raise this hand pre, and i'm a nit vs limps

Even if the reg is raising T9o+ for value? And what about exploitable raise betsizing? Every time they raise fold we gain, and every time we gii pre vs J9s we win a small victory too. I think limp jamming pps is terrible as they play a lot worse than Ax, but surely it's better than folding to limp jam Ax vs this type of villain.

I suppose this isn't readless tho...

great discusion guys, i appreciate it.

p.s.: yes, i don't know why i didn't raise pre...

i really don't get your point, do you argue against raising the limp? because nowhere in the op i find evidence that villain is a reg and while the tendency to raise limps too wide might be exploitable, i see no evidence that villain will exploit us.

even in the case of a villain capable of adapting, i don't think raising J9o is really exploitable. we will be raising a limp about one third of the time , not enough to make up for the times preflop goes check check and 22 just gave free equity to all the hands that would have folded to an openjam.

You not get call to often by 9J but when you do villian have great equity against you,also his raising range contain big AX and and big pp that crash you,there are the times you limp and he chk back and you play post flop with ****y hand that play best pre flop.

also pretty easy to adjust agaist it.
I think [not sure] that pps play better by limp\jam against villain complete range.

Nono you are quite right- I just mentioned that in passing so it was irrelevant to the OP. I was kinda saying that we can exploit regs who raise superwide only for value by limping junk as well as Ax mb even Kx and never call a raise- shoving or folding- but this obv goes against pop tendencies and has nothing to do with OP. So basically we lose kinda minimum with junk, and when villain checks back his range is very weak and our junk + Ax does very well post vs such a range.

Also I don't think limping low pps is ever good, but limping Ax isn't too bad and plays decent post too.

Also vs some regs we kinda have to mr/call almost all Ax anyway, so mb limp jamming is a more +EV line with them?