Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos Discussion of heads up Sit & Go and Spin and Go poker games. Sponsored by HUSNG.com, the leading heads up poker video site.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-20-2019, 04:02 PM   #126
coon74
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 10,663
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Another reason why the ROI is low in mass multitabling is that Hero's own slowness results in a reduction of the average number of hands played per blind level. This effect is less prominent at 6-9-max SNGs if Hero is the only slow actor at the table, and doesn't exist at those SNGs where the blinds grow after a fixed number of hands is played, but the effect is brutal at spins, where Hero is 1 of the 2-3 players, and blinds grow every 3 minutes.

Also, stacking tables is bad for spins because those games that are in the HU phase require action a lot more frequently than those that are in the 3-max. The StackAndTile tool can manage the grind more efficiently if you create 4 grid slots where the tables that require action will be moved - this way, you'll be able to quickly see the tables where you can make obvious folds without wasting the timebank.

Last edited by coon74; 01-20-2019 at 04:14 PM.
coon74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 04:34 PM   #127
Exhosa
journeyman
 
Exhosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 329
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

The days where edges can be so big that you can 10 table without a HUD etc and be profitable are gone imo. $100 spin field must be already tough and you're making it almost impossible for yourself to be profitable by auto piloting.

It's impossible to beat %5 rake vs any decent reg + you're lowering your edge vs recs to the point that maybe you're only breakeven or slightly winning.

As others also said, you seem like a cool and very hard working guy but unless you change your approach, it's all gonna be for nothing or for very little IMO.

I wish you all the best!
Exhosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 05:15 PM   #128
_Beck_
stranger
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 8
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEQONE View Post
Too many regs, not enough fish for everyone.
How can you possibly win money, If on 11 tables only 2 fishes and 20 regs.
The game is very bad and I see no reason why it can get better.
Maybe spins 100$ are dead, as was the case with zoom500.
Of course there will be guys who have a good results, but out of 10 only one will be GodMode, but 9 will losing.

Yeah, i tried to study hard, bought skier5db, bought InstaGTO (at this moment favorite software for study), discussing about strategy with topregs 500s.
But it is all not helps me. I'm only average regular.

I think it's time to start planning to leave the spin and go, unfortunately this is a game without a future, too high rake and no rakeback.
And the game is too easy to solve and full of rogues in it.
Hello ! You are right , the situation in spins is very bad , I believe that soon even lower stakes will be not that profitably. In this case if you wanna continue with poker , you have to chose something between MTT and cash ( If you wanna 30$+/h )
_Beck_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 05:35 PM   #129
Calmarsen
stranger
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 6
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Beck_ View Post
Hello ! You are right , the situation in spins is very bad , I believe that soon even lower stakes will be not that profitably. In this case if you wanna continue with poker , you have to chose something between MTT and cash ( If you wanna 30$+/h )
I hope you say this cuz you dont know better, not due to self interest. Step it up guys.
Calmarsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 08:37 PM   #130
saintanna23
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEQONE View Post
Too many regs, not enough fish for everyone.
How can you possibly win money, If on 11 tables only 2 fishes and 20 regs.
The game is very bad and I see no reason why it can get better.
Maybe spins 100$ are dead, as was the case with zoom500.
Of course there will be guys who have a good results, but out of 10 only one will be GodMode, but 9 will losing.

Yeah, i tried to study hard, bought skier5db, bought InstaGTO (at this moment favorite software for study), discussing about strategy with topregs 500s.
But it is all not helps me. I'm only average regular.

I think it's time to start planning to leave the spin and go, unfortunately this is a game without a future, too high rake and no rakeback.
And the game is too easy to solve and full of rogues in it.
Yo Freeq,

Sad to hear this but unfortunately it is no surprise for me at all. The times of mass tabling are over. The only poker player that will survive in these times, is the one that is the best at bum hunting, because face it with rake this high it is CRUCIAL to hunt bums. OR the ones that cheat like the SMARTSPIN MAFFIA that were queeing the 500s for more than 400K EV last year. But they got banned luckily enough.

You work hard, extremely hard BUT in a very UNEFFICIENT way. With rake this high, you need to maximize your edge, which mains play where the fish is and if there are 20 regs on 11 tables, you are just giving money to PS and wasting your time.
THE REAL PROBLEM are the ****ING STABLES. BURN THEM DOWN NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is not a single soul playing 100s without having their asses covered by some EV deal. All those horses living on 500$/month would be playing 3s or 7s and games would become better. But I don't see how this will be resolved.
saintanna23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 03:26 AM   #131
FREEQONE
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 120
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Omg guys, are i'm in poker forum?
Why do you advise me to play 3-4 table on quality instead of 10 for volume?

I've said it 100 times and I'll say it again.
IT'S SIMPLE MATH

100s
3 tables 100s with 45 chipev 25 games per hour = 77,5EV$/hr
10 tables 100s with 35 chipev 75 games hour = 90EV$/hr

30s
4 tables 30s 60 chipev 30g/hour = 43EV$/hr
11 tables 30s 45 chipev 80g/hour = 48EV$/hr
(pure $/hr, w/o EV deal offers, jp not included)

Very big discount chipEV 10 for 100s and 15 for 30s because multitabling.
But i'm still earn more, than "QUALITY PLAYER"
What a joke, you write like I've never thought about it myself.
Of course I figured that and how profitable and more convenient.

But even on 10 tables I have not so much worse winrate than the average player at any stake.
The game got worse, and 10 tables had nothing to do with it.

Of course, I can play 3-4 tables with a very good winrate, but what's the point if less money, less action and less fun?
I think my biggest problem is that I climbed into the wilds of the f7cking exploit and my game is very far away from GTO atm.
Thats all.
I invested 9 months to study exploits and get nothing.
I think if i invest same amount of time in GTO, I would shot 500s.
FREEQONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 03:47 AM   #132
ChicagoRy
 
ChicagoRy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ColoradoRy
Posts: 20,040
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

The math isn't that simple, if you're overshooting your 10 table winrate and/or undershooting your 3 table winrate, those #s can change quite quickly, and your #s don't need to be that wrong to change the result.

Can't imagine you can easily adjust your strategy to individual opponents when playing 2 and 3 handed over 10 tables. (Approximated) GTO vs Exploitative is going to depend on how the playerbase plays. At a lower level, you'd want to play more exploitative, even if you can't adjust, there's more money to be won than trying to find a simplified version of GTO to use. I don't know about $100 spins and it's hard to tell by talking to a few regs/these forums, group think in poker, particularly short handed, has proven wrong time and again over the years.

I'm sorry I don't have better answers/direction for you, I hope you can find a good groove and crush again, love your determination.
ChicagoRy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 06:26 AM   #133
saintanna23
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEQONE View Post
100s
3 tables 100s with 45 chipev 25 games per hour = 77,5EV$/hr
10 tables 100s with 35 chipev 75 games hour = 90EV$/hr
1. 1 problem here: U are not getting 35cev at 100s atm, nor will u get 45 if u play only 3 tables.

2. What u dont seem to understand is that GTO doesnt mean **** if u play vs only regs. Not even the smartest GTO BOT will be able to beat 5% rake vs 2 brainfart regs in spins. IT IS A ****ING HYPERTURBO.

3. Why the F do u think GTO is the holy grail. I think u don't understand the concept of it tbh. It just means a perfect balanced game, that's all dude. It would be bad to play a perfect balanced game vs fish that don't give a **** about balance.
saintanna23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 07:46 AM   #134
Xptboy
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: dolphin in the ocean
Posts: 1,038
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

ITT: players who can’t multitable like FREEQ (most of whom cant beat 100s) telling him what to do. I think his approach to multitabling and GTO vs exploit is fine/up to him, and I agree with FREEQ on state of games, games now are way tougher than 6+months ago. For a while compared to other formats, spins was the easiest format online to move up stakes quickly and crush. It looks like finally this isn’t the case anymore and 100s spins are finally “saturated” like zoom500 was a while ago. On the other hand im not sure i agree that it’s time to move on from spins just because you can’t make as much money as before. Best regs will still survive, but many will (or already have) move down stakes or quit spins and aspiring pros won’t be as eager now to come to spins compared to other formats finally as they see it is no longer as easy as it was before to move up in stakes very fast and then make good money as it was just a year ago. I hope the games don’t get too much tougher from this point on, and just like in cashgames at z500+ there are still a bunch of players who are very hard working/talented who can continue to crush the games for years to come and just because of the high rake and hyperturbo format spins doesn’t have to one day become unbeatable.

Last edited by Xptboy; 01-21-2019 at 08:00 AM.
Xptboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 08:09 AM   #135
Pl@yerABC
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
Posts: 73
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmarsen View Post
...Show yourself that u can get 45 cev+ playing 2 tables with max focus and then get back to that sicko multitabling grind...
Going from 10 tables to 2-tabling is almost impossible imo. It would feel like watching the paint dry.
Pl@yerABC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 08:59 AM   #136
saintanna23
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xptboy View Post
There are still a bunch of players who are very hard working/talented who can continue to crush the games for years to come
Is that what your horsemaster is telling u? Nobody crushes the games right now buddy. Everybody is playing for their stable master. Aren't you a smartspinning boy who went to play on Pokerstars ES because games are too tough on .com. Probably you guys have some cheating queeing system there too, wouldnt surprise me.
saintanna23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 10:33 AM   #137
ohly
Pooh-Bah
 
ohly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Berlin
Posts: 3,669
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

if financial entry barriers are torn down by stables, why would people keep making alot of money at higher stakes? anybody who believes that doesn't understand how markets work.
ohly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 12:34 PM   #138
Xptboy
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: dolphin in the ocean
Posts: 1,038
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by saintanna23 View Post
Is that what your horsemaster is telling u? Nobody crushes the games right now buddy. Everybody is playing for their stable master. Aren't you a smartspinning boy who went to play on Pokerstars ES because games are too tough on .com. Probably you guys have some cheating queeing system there too, wouldnt surprise me.
Just for clarification me and Smartspin agreed to part ways a while ago, though before I left them they did not have any queueing systems on .ES and I'm quite certain they don't have one now (I am also totally against any sort of queueing or breaking of ToS). Also I played barely any volume on .es compared to .com just to see the games before deciding I ultimately prefered .com for a variety of reasons (can play at all times, prefered playing vs best regs to keep improving my game amongst others). So basically your post towards me makes no sense lol.
Xptboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 01:42 PM   #139
youngdaggerdick
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 61
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by saintanna23 View Post
1. 1 problem here: U are not getting 35cev at 100s atm, nor will u get 45 if u play only 3 tables.

2. What u dont seem to understand is that GTO doesnt mean **** if u play vs only regs. Not even the smartest GTO BOT will be able to beat 5% rake vs 2 brainfart regs in spins. IT IS A ****ING HYPERTURBO.

3. Why the F do u think GTO is the holy grail. I think u don't understand the concept of it tbh. It just means a perfect balanced game, that's all dude. It would be bad to play a perfect balanced game vs fish that don't give a **** about balance.
yep, ofc, bots cant beat spins, gto is ****.. oh wait..
youngdaggerdick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 02:23 PM   #140
oooooohmy
stranger
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 13
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by youngdaggerdick View Post
yep, ofc, bots cant beat spins, gto is ****.. oh wait..
gto bots will have very low winrate, YES. gto bots with exploitative strategies would be crushing the games.

no?
oooooohmy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 04:41 PM   #141
FREEQONE
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 120
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Do you have some proofs that GTO bot will have very low winrate?
Because from what I know and saw, GTO bots had at least a winrate better than the average pool player.
Winamax bots have at 100s have 45+
A lot of Bulgarian cheaters have 50+ chipev at 100s on .com stars
I read blogs banned fools on Russian forums and also more than AVG numbers.

And remember how they're played, GTO is a passive calling station.
This is actually a very important sign. Over time been proven many times what kind of style crushing game.
But still there are clever people who believe that the exploit can give better or more chipEV.
FREEQONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 05:58 PM   #142
Calmarsen
stranger
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 6
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEQONE View Post
And remember how they're played, GTO is a passive calling station.
Say what? Have you played any GTO-bots on eurosites? Donking ranges on every street. Insane river XR-ranges making it a nightmare to vauebet. Using way more agressive barelling sizes than the std reg. You face a million iso-sizes pre flop. Saying GTO is a passive callingstation confuses me. What do you mean? Yes they dont cb as much as the general playerpool making the gametree a bit different but passive callingstations? What do you mean?

But they still burn money against the fish.
Calmarsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 06:09 PM   #143
Mimicry
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Bulgaria
Posts: 192
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Why nobody talks about PP/bwin spins ? Theres rakeback and better rake on 250/500 or theres only godlike players ?I wonder on micro spins there ,can they be profitable with a big roi .
Mimicry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 07:17 PM   #144
FREEQONE
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 120
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calmarsen View Post
Say what? Have you played any GTO-bots on eurosites? Donking ranges on every street. Insane river XR-ranges making it a nightmare to vauebet. Using way more agressive barelling sizes than the std reg. You face a million iso-sizes pre flop. Saying GTO is a passive callingstation confuses me. What do you mean? Yes they dont cb as much as the general playerpool making the gametree a bit different but passive callingstations? What do you mean?

But they still burn money against the fish.
Everything you said is not happening at this high frequency.
In skierdb gto donks freqs 4-13-14, it's almost close to how play now at 100s almost any reg. Everyone know how to donk Q575, T949 etc (paired boards)
or runner runner flushes, etc. I think many are very close to these values.
Isolates same, almost everyone split preflop range with 3x and 5x-6x-7x ISO sizes.

Which is quite unusual, so yeah, XR river and different turn/river cbet sizes, basically 150%+ pot.
But the rest GTO bot plays very passive, even if you play in the simulator Simple GTO Trainer you can see how often you bet where the GTO checks.
More passive than average 100s regs usually plays.
FREEQONE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 11:02 PM   #145
Calmarsen
stranger
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 6
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEQONE View Post
Everything you said is not happening at this high frequency.
In skierdb gto donks freqs 4-13-14, it's almost close to how play now at 100s almost any reg. Everyone know how to donk Q575, T949 etc (paired boards)
or runner runner flushes, etc. I think many are very close to these values.
Isolates same, almost everyone split preflop range with 3x and 5x-6x-7x ISO sizes.

Which is quite unusual, so yeah, XR river and different turn/river cbet sizes, basically 150%+ pot.
But the rest GTO bot plays very passive, even if you play in the simulator Simple GTO Trainer you can see how often you bet where the GTO checks.
More passive than average 100s regs usually plays.
GTO is passive cuz GTO is aggressive. Playerpool is aggressive cuz playerpool is passive.
Calmarsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2019, 01:55 AM   #146
valuecutting
centurion
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 165
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

gto may be more passive because the other side is more aggressive. There are many areas that gto is more aggressive than humans like with overbets and running low equity bluffs.
valuecutting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2019, 02:28 AM   #147
saintanna23
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimicry View Post
Why nobody talks about PP/bwin spins ? Theres rakeback and better rake on 250/500 or theres only godlike players ?I wonder on micro spins there ,can they be profitable with a big roi .
Because these games are owned by stables. Smartspin has a queeing system which allows their users to avoid each other. Any reg that isn't part of this maffia will have to face almost only reg games, making cev so low that even with 50%RB u can't win. And Party doesn't care so they let them cheat.
At least PS is trying to **** the stable cheaters.
saintanna23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2019, 02:35 AM   #148
saintanna23
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xptboy View Post
Just for clarification me and Smartspin agreed to part ways a while ago, though before I left them they did not have any queueing systems on .ES and I'm quite certain they don't have one now (I am also totally against any sort of queueing or breaking of ToS). Also I played barely any volume on .es compared to .com just to see the games before deciding I ultimately prefered .com for a variety of reasons (can play at all times, prefered playing vs best regs to keep improving my game amongst others). So basically your post towards me makes no sense lol.
Appologies for getting a bit too personal with the remarks. GREAT for u to have left Smartcheat. I do stand behind my comment about nobody crushing the games unless for cheaters. People can make profit but just no huge numbers anymore and without EV deal it has become very hard these days.
saintanna23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2019, 02:40 AM   #149
saintanna23
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 75
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREEQONE View Post
Do you have some proofs that GTO bot will have very low winrate?
Winamax bots have at 100s have 45+
A lot of Bulgarian cheaters have 50+ chipev at 100s on .com stars
I read blogs banned fools on Russian forums and also more than AVG numbers.
BLA BLA BLA. YOU say, He says, she says we say. Give some proof when u come up with these statements. I see hardly any bulgarian on 100s. Also no bot is able to get 50cev against 2 regs. It is just impossible dude. I wanna make some bets about this tbh. Let the worlds best bot play me and even some 15s reg over 5K games spins and I WILL BET it won't beat rake.
saintanna23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2019, 03:08 AM   #150
FREEQONE
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 120
Re: 222,222 Spin&Go Games: Endurance Challenge

Libratus destroyed HU team pro with 14evbb/100 edge.
I'm sure GTO bot will crush at least 45 chipev any stake in Spin and Go.
Everyone will lose to GTO bot in HU, SBvsBB 3max and prolly BTNvsBB.
So there is so big edge between human and machine.
There can be no doubt about that.

Even OBORRA (cashgame bot) have 4evbb/100 as i remember.
He is complete gto bot, crushing nl2k+ games.
This is a simple example, that gto can earn in raked games.
FREEQONE is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online