Hey guys!

I heart about something Steel Phoenix, i checked the webpage, but couldnt find any information about reloding. Do i need to provide the first deposit, then if i lose some, they will reload me?

Thanks i also didnt find a relevant topic here...

It is different services.

You talking about "staking".
This is when you play with not your own funds.
In Phoenix "EV Deal" you can play without "staking" with your own money.
You just participate in the sharing EV and actual money to reduce variance.

But as far as I know in phoenix there is also a "staking" offer.
Only it will be completely different numbers.
Players with a reputation will give away from 10 to 20% EV without providing a lot of personal information.
Players without a reputation are likely from a 25%+ EV rate and you will need to provide a lot of documents to guarantee that you will not run away with this money.

But you need to find out, try to apply in phoenix and find out what they can offer you.

Doesn't a 100% trustworthy person lose some expectation every time someone scams the pool since it's shared? Maybe it's not a big factor in the long run, I guess it depends on the rate that it happens and how big it is.

sick, I think my eyes are clouded by spins that poker is dying

So much money in cash games...
I spend 80-100 hours a month on GTO study and I don’t even have close to 10k/month expectation.
When in reality there are a lot of people who do it, and this is only from 1 poker site.

Do you know what hourly is STD on nl100+? Maybe if hourlys are close its better for you to just move to cash

It`s nowhere close if we are talking about PS. If you are decent in Spins mtabling @ 100s or 60s you`d need to play zoom500+.

I would be very surprised if decent 200z players weren't making somewhat more than most 60/100 spinners. 100z players mostly shouldn't be, though.

Its funny that you always get angry on people who show their winrates after like 3k spins games (60k+hands), but sharing leaderboards of players to show possible winrates over lass than 10k hands...
If you let spin players play these kind of hand samples of like 500 spin games and filter all the best runs you will see similar "sick" winrates

When Spins were tracked, before they even added $500s, the leaderboard each month was more impressive than that first image, which is 1kNL.

The 2nd image is impressive, but nothing nearly at those stakes really runs at enough volume in Spins to be a relevant comparison either.

Also, you wouldn't be able to 16 table games in either of those images, so we're getting really far from reality here!

nah, I tracking most stables and EV pools.
A few people in spins make 10k+/month.
And draw parallels with other games.
Only at pokerstars a lot of people earned 10k+ without taking into account zoom, without rakeback and with table limit 4.
I'm sure many of these regulars are still bumhunting other rooms.
Therefore, the sample will be more, as well as the result itself.

Spins are dying, too many regulars.
Schools destroyed the game and everyone is fighting for a penny.
It is impossible to influence it except to leave this discipline and not waste your time in vain.
Seems with the same efforts, you can achieve more in other games.

obv 10k/month in Spins possible at 250+ stakes, but I see it as a 24/7 investment in poker to play such games
I’m wondering if at all there are such spin and go players who devote at least 250 hours a month to playing+study

But to make 10k+/month u have to play z500+ right ? This is the same, u have to dedicate 24/7 in poker to fight lobbies and bumhunt 24/7

Don't forget that "spins tracking" time was with 28%/40%+ rakeback.
And the jackpots were different, it was much better x3600>x12000.
Interest in the game is completely different and other income.
And rakeback was one of the most important parts for regs profit.
When rakeback is over, many thought that winrates would increase and the game would continue.
So it was the first time, many who left and winrates really grew.
But now winrates are worse than average winrates back in rakeback times.
And people forgot about it or try not to pay attention to it.

+1 all FREEQ said. Look at results of EV pools. Even many “top” spins regs in 100s are not making more than 10k/mo. If a person is making +5k/mo average in spins right now on 100s they are an “OK reg”, even a good reg. This is not even considering that most people still split profits with their stables. To make 10k/mo+ you need to play 250s+. Winrates now are worse than when there was rakeback as said by OP. And then those guys on stars have much bigger samples on other sites.

As FREEQ said, one of the biggest problems are the schools and stables and EV pools. Especially the stables. There are so many horse in stables who joined without knowing what they were getting themselves into. And then slaved their next few YEARS to them without the option to leave because the stable basically doesn’t let them and threatens with lawsuits or whatever if they try to leave (which is a straight up lie too). Unfortunately there’s many **** stables that will accept almost anyone to join them, and just be given some generic strategy that is good enough to beat lowstakes recreationals. But then these players never move past 30s because their “learning materials” are not good enough to help anyone past those lowstakes. Resulting in them being stuck in stables now, no option to leave or change discipline because the stable will use some fear mongering tactics against anyone who wants to leave.

Obviously there are a few smaller stables dedicated towards higher stakes players in general with decent people in charge. But pretty much any large stable now with over hundreds of members is nothing more than a for profit business that exploits their horse. Stables are a massive problem in this high rake game that is one of the simplest to solve out of all poker formats.

In cashgame/MTTs there is not this massive problem with stables since it is a much more complex game where players cannot just learn some simple strategy to beat lowstakes, and less bankroll requirements to move up stakes since less variance + it has less rake. But maybe cashgames/MTTs will suffer same fate too eventually, there are always greedy corrupt people who will be fine exploiting horse for their own good. Though for sure, it is much tougher in that environment where people can easier get info for much cheaper and don’t need as big bankroll requirements, and the quality of coachings will have to be much better in those disciplines anyways.

The funniest thing though, is that in cashgames or MTTs where you can more easily move up and down stakes with less bankroll requirement and more money to be made, you can sign up for a training site for 100$/mo max such as runitonce, raiseyouredge, plo mastermind, upswing, etc and get totally good material, or certainly better than what is available in most stables. Good enough to help anyone get to midstakes+ In different disciplines if they work hard. Yet in spins to get any training material you need to sign your life away to a stable for the next couple years and split almost 50% of your profits. WTF! The worst thing is that stables will keep recruiting as they always have and continue to make games worse.

To any lowstakes beginner with dreams of getting to the highstakes through spins. Firstly, highly consider other options. Secondly don’t join a stable, if you can reach 100s, you can usually do it on your own. Or at least grind on your own until you are at 30s+ and then can join one of the smaller and better stables that focus on highstakes players more.

And ty FREEQ for making a thread where people feel like they can freely discuss such issues.

Can you please post a pict of top loser in that rank.

I don't know hourly rates in cashgames.
Only what I remember when pokerstars froze me and can't play 2 months,
I tried to grind for rakeback in PokerKing room, affilate offered me 100-110% rakeback,
and I grind for rakerace 60-65 hours per week and get ~70$/hr with winrate -1 evbb/100 at stakes nl20-100, because room was bot infested in that time.
But the bots were not so strong, they only played 1evbb/100.

It turned out about +$6,000 a week only with rakeback and affiliate bonuses
Minus 1evbb/100 ~ -1500-2000$
So +4000-4500$ per week sounds like a good deal.
This is taking into account the fact that I switched without preparation and experience, I had only experience of multi-tabling and an iron ass

I don’t know what offer there is now, maybe everything is the same.
From the latest news there they made an analogue of supernova elite.
Perhaps with all the bonuses you can have 100%+ rakeback and do 100k$+ per year.

Yeap, I think after 6 month of study GTO solver you can join in z500, but for me more reasonable would be bumhunt NL100-600 among all rooms.

But to be honest cash games don't attract me anymore.
Yes, there is a lot of money, but the game should also be fun.
During this 2 months break from spin and go, I realized that I was not interested in either playing or studying cash game in solvers.

It's still a lot more interesting for me to deal with tournament chips.

I do not have a subscription to this site, I took screenshots from cashgame player blog

It's hard for me to disagree, most everything you say feels right.

It just sucks that we can't see the cold, hard data on this anymore.

There were many years that felt like HUSNGs had fallen off, but in reality they hadn't, just some familiar names were struggling and vocal about it (and many new names, less inclined to brag or share their success were coming up).

one guy send me that picture



seems pokerstars soon add analogue of winamax nitro or something like that.
If avg duration of regular spin and go is 8-10 min, probably they want to decrease it to 4-5 min.
And I think this is a final ;D
It will be much more funny for recreational players and the players pool will split.
There are so few of them, and now it will be completely sad.

Although maybe shouldn’t panic early, maybe it’s not so bad.
I was told in Winamax it is not very popular.

strange how you can not make more than ten thousand dollars a month playing a 25 big blind poker format that has GTO solutions available on the internet

Who told you that, it's full of bad reg ready to battle 2 regs games till they're broke.
Regular Expressos definently lost plenty of traffic aswell.
Fishs love it.

But in France online casinos are forbidden, so maybe it won't be that popular on stars.

Is the end finally near with those “flash” spins? Too bad those stable slaves won’t be able to quit though.

Yeah situation on winamax is quite dire with 9% effective rake. The rakeback doesn’t make up for that, especially with more and more regs understandably trying to leave stars.

Yeah you basicly pay 6% rake at 100s at least (7% + 2% from big multis -3% from Red Diamond rakeback).
It's gonna be the same at 100s on stars (5% + 1% from big multis - 0.0000001% rakeback).

Btw the Winamax volume based challenges are soon forbidden by french laws, to prevent addiction

What`s the difference skillwise between 60 and 100 on stars atm ?

In my opinion 60$ = 100$ = 250$ by skill difficulty.
Everything rests only on bankroll requirement.
But 60$ is a really bad stake due to the ratio reg/fish.
Especially some hours.
In general, 60$ can be played just to train vsReg game quite cheap.

Biggest skill gap 30$ -> 60$+