I play 120h/month top 4tabling spins and i get bored. Any tips to play 200h+ or i just have to be ashamed of myself and grind?

Yeap, I have very precise solutions with 3-5 sizings on every street.
But I don't recommend it for beginners and interim lvl.
It will be too difficult to study.

And sry, I can't share you % betsizings for calculations.

It is ok.
Just do not expect that you will be the best in this game.
This can afford only talented players.
Therefore, playing <150 hours per month will be a normal average player.

But to get to the top and fight for a place in the world, at least 200hr+ a month.

200h+ of pure grind or mixed between grind and study?

I though the same about you, maybe one of us is right or maybe we both suck Maybe my results will be a bit worse, we`ll see on bigger sample but anything over 45cpg with such multitabling is still a great hourly so gonna be fine. Also I don`t play 7-8 during worst hours/ sometimes during a session I cut number of tabs for some time cozz of high multipliers etc. which helps obviously. I think there are deffo a few players 100/250/500 who can be making 50cpg with 6+ these days, saw some nice graphs

You gotta remember that when spinlyzer was running everyone was playing even more tabs as rakeback was high. When I was making SNE I was playing 11-12 for most of the time and during end of 2k15 games were tough as there was a regfest with everyone finishing SNE. That`s why cpg results weren`t too good these days. I remember one of Greek players telling a story that tseloni was playing 14 tabs sleeping on the toilet after like 30h without a sleep Good, old times. No more ot FREEQ, sorry and good luck.

Lol just saw that 20k month challenge thread, that was a nice one

yeah ;D

New spin and go games, opinion on this ? rip spins ?

The traffic of recs will split

Hi, 1 month since last update

How are you ?
What have you been up to ?

Hope everything is okey, xoxo .

I think 6+ is a dead game.
Not sure that it more interesting for fishies.

Hey, sorry for that.
Recently I have some coaching lessons about exploit with topregs 100+
Yeah, yeah, I thought about it again.
And after this lessons, I lost 100 evbuyins at 30s.
Another lesson cost me 2500 games in 37 cEV at 30s.

This is so tilted me that I'm doing exactly same things as a top regs and get nothing.
On the contrary, I was simply destroyed.
I have lost the desire to do anything at all.
Including blogging.

Now I am ready to bet money on the fact that I will never try an exploit in my life again.
I don't care what anyone says, GTO will be better for me than anything.

Today I'm playing at 30s with full GTO style, trying to add 12-13 table.
I don't check results, so I will only show you PT4 21 August.
My plan is to make a mini challenge #Ladder on the limits and try to stay at 100$ soon.
Yes, I would like to make frequent updates, but viewing the results is destroying me mentally.

What have I learned lately?
That I have no chance to increase my winrate.
Literally 0.
Think my upper limit will 50 chipev on 30$ and about 40 chipEV on 60-100$
If I just do not get out of the GTO solvers and constantly repeat the material.
But on average, most likely I need to focus on the numbers 45 cEV by 30$ and 35 cEV by 60-100$.

Based on this, I need to increase my expectation in something else.
Discipline, schedule, increasing the number of tables, more to grinding in general, selecting good hours to grind.

Things have been bad for me lately, nothing's been going right.
It is very difficult at such moments to find motivation to move on.
Despite the fact that I spend a lot of time to poker, including study.

I don't know if it breaks me or makes me stronger.
I hope that someday I will be the moment when the variance and luck is on my side.

I'm sure a lot of grinders (myself included) have always taken a lot of motivation from you dude. Keep yer head high in these tough moments!

Doesnt nice2meet play with GTO aproach and he reached 1000s ? So why u trying exploits again ? :P

Is it possible that you just make way more mistakes doing 10-12 tables versus a lower amount? I know you've said that you have a lower winrate with more tables (obv) and that more tables makes up for it, but poker history has shown us that for mass multi tablers there is a very thin line between a higher hourly due to more tables and the insanity of low EV negative variance/little to no profit.

Might you consider a 120-160 hour experiment where you focus on cutting the tables in half at least and see what type of EV you're getting?

were you trying to make exploit plays while doing 10+ tables stacked? not really surprised that that gave you poor results

When someone tells me about exploit and 10+ tables.



I'm not ready to discuss this anymore.
Exploit is a closed topic for me.

Hey Freeq,what is up??
I've seen a screename FREEQ7Z at partypoker playing heads up sit'n'gos with very good results and at first I thought it was you!!
What do you think about the games there??

Are you splitting your games there a bit??
Some insights about the games,the regs,the recs??
Would appreciate it a lot!

Good results tho,I might change my name to FREEQ7Z too!

Today I will finish (for EV deal period) last 800 games at 30s and gonna check PT4.
This month really work hard and study hard.

I very much rolled back the strategy to the moment when I played 20,000 challenge.
Full GTO with some GTO improvements.
I analyzed my 20K challenge and some spots was too bad,
like overdelaying, shitty preflop 3max, 3max postflop at all.
So I fix it slightly and think play more GTOish than before.

Pretty excited and a little scary.
Played only 30s and have decent sample.
And if there's less than 45 chipEV at 30s, I'll be very upset again.
Then I finally do not know how to beat this game.
If this is so, then my career in spin and go will end through 2-3 days.

Update soon.

Any news?? Can´t wait for your updates. How you´ve been doing?

Aaaaalright

EV pool period is end.
Dancing on the edge of retiring.
Anyway, I'm satisfied.
11 tables without nicknames = 46 chipEV.
On a graph second half of sample totally EV breakeven.
And first 4.5k games was 57 chipEV.
Interesting.

Played ~113 hours = 45$/hr + 3$/hr rakeback = 48$/hr
Studied ~80 hours, at least 2 hours per day and sometimes I do "theory rush" days, when I don't play and only work with solver.

I think I'm done with 30s and gonna try to shot 100s.
This month whole 30s regs pool losing to me -1.02 evbb/100 (-0.84 cev/hand).
So I don't scary most of regs and I only need a games with at least 1 fish.

Lets go September.

Analyzed this one run and spotted weak places in my game.
Intesting that I ended 8000 games with 21 evbb/100 (5.5 chEV/hand) on a BTN 3max.
When my standart numbers is 29-30 (7.5-7.7 c/h).
It means that variance stealed at least 3 chips from my winrate and I can assume that the real winrate will be 48-50 chipEV.
That would be very, very good.

September I will study only BB3 vs BTN 15-20-25bb and play against GTO trainer only these spots.

Honestly a lot of opinions about GTO 3max.
Many believe that it is not optimal to study it by solver.
I have some idea how to do it, like import a lot of hands in H2N, split regs/fishes, cut tendencies and built custom preflop ranges.
Next analyze flop/turn/river value/bluff distributions and adjusting based on it.
I think most of players not bluff enough river and not bluff with big sizes.
But there is still a lot of doubts about value of this way.
And I'm not sure I have the energy to dive that deep.

I think there are still many questions about the realization of equity.
Solver realizes a lot of equity on its lines.
I tried to improve the R/EQ through exploit and it not works.

For example in 3max I often pick some preflop hands into 3bet jam, while the solver is playing through 100% call.
But the solver will be able to realize this equity, but I'm not.
For me this is still an open problem, I do not know whether to simplify to do or better to try to play more advanced.
And unfortunately I have no one to discuss it.
Most regs will be silent, or just do not understand a damn thing.
Many still do not study at all and grind based only on their intuition and experience.

https://soundcloud.com/darlekone/dar...vacant-despair

Do you build custom preflop ranges with preflop piosolver ?

Nope, I think I have same GTO preflop as most of regs who trying to be unexploit.

But when study exploit I do many preflop NodeLocks in PioSOLVER.
Learned a lot of interesting things that the frequencies should work, but in practice does not work.
For example overfolding vs minrase at least 5% solver will take a lot of hands in raise first range.
I tried it against the fish and ended up what? Was broken.
And it was a lot preflop experiments, but almost all failed.
Haha this is so stupidly, that I have simply there is no words.
You try to do something unique, and you end up shitting yourself.
And then someone said that GTO play is not optimal because the ranges are different everywhere.
OH MY LORD.
My head explodes immediately.

I actually got the feeling that the current stereotypes are very outdated.
And that GTO does not give good results the biggest myth.
Proved it repeatedly, despite the fact that I play human GTO.
I can't even imagine what will do with real games full GTO bot.
When you have in the game all these hard to memorizing <10% frequency actions and donkbets in the right situations.
Perhaps I would put my bankroll on the fact that there will be a minimum of 55 chipEV at stakes 100$+.
And no one exploit guy would even be close to such a result.
But nevertheless all believe, that all money in exploit.

And i think GTO is really powerful everywhere, not only in Spins.

Hi,

You should probably stop trying to overthink things so much. Based on this thread you've put in the work off the tables with the solvers and the "why" the solver does something seems more important than any exact frequency, etc.

After you form an argument for "whY" the solver is doing something then you dig deeper. Is this a strategy I can implement easily enough with a low degree of error? Study the counter strategy. Why does the solver do this when I do this, etc? Is the counter strategy more complicated, less intuitive when I do this, etc. I'm sure you've done this before in your head but it's a reminder that this is where the real solver learning comes from as a human. If you are answering these questions then it leads to you improving as a player and in the future you'll be able to more easily answer similar questions on the fly without the help of a calculator.

GtO Vs Exploit, In the end it's just a game of who can make the fewest mistakes.

"Learned a lot of interesting things that the frequencies should work, but in practice does not work.
For example overfolding vs minrase at least 5% solver will take a lot of hands in raise first range.
I tried it against the fish and ended up what? Was broken.
And it was a lot preflop experiments, but almost all failed.
Haha this is so stupidly, that I have simply there is no words.
You try to do something unique, and you end up shitting yourself."

Would be very curious:
1. for how many hands did you try out these things?
2. How did you measure how a certain strategy worked vs others in your sample? For example you deviate your 3h BB vs SB flatting ranges or 3b ranges from "gto" bc you found an exploit. For me it seems like one should do it for quite huge sample size in order to harvest any information about situation.
3. How do you know the problem was with the strategy and not with the implementation of strategy? For example playing too many tables with new strategy etc


"For example overfolding vs minrase at least 5% solver will take a lot of hands in raise first range.
I tried it against the fish and ended up what? Was broken."

You took the solution too literally, not calculating in the psychology factor (and insane variance ). If you nodelock the opponent in PIO it wont take account that a player for sure will deviate if you do something in enermous frequency. For example vs a person who cbet folds way too much PIO might suggest not having a calling range on certain flops and always xraising. But as we play more versus that opponent its almost sure he will adjust- not saying adjust correctly but adjusting somehow which could cut our EV or turn it into losses.


You are a very good player but seemingly you dont take very important factors into exploitation game, you look at it if you played against a non human, a solver. I dont think the problem is with exploit vs GTO in general the problem is with how you think about exploits.