i have not played on stars since black friday, but i will soon be on pokerstars. i am a $100-$500 reg on US sites.

is there a $200/$300 level roi/games chart to join the group? if so id be willing to 6-9 table a $200 reg to get in the group ASAP if my roi is good. or would i have to play them 1 by 1?

Only the 60-100s have the roi system, the 200+ is votes.

You need to play them 1 by 1 and get 19 votes. This is the voting spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=0

GL!

so how exactly do u get a vote?
that looks like its almost impossible to get 19 votes or it would take like a year to get it?

Maybe thats the idea.. and you probably get someones vote if you take enough money off of someone or hurt his profitabilty signifcantly..

My understanding is that in the $200's getting in by voting is impossible, instead you need to force someone in the $200's division to move down, and when that happens they'll let someone from sitlist in to replace them.

Can someone remind me WHY the 200s and up are not using the EV req system?

I assume the 60/100s realized their system isnt gonna work if they dont use objective criteria since too many skillful players would stay on the outside which in the end would weaken their objective too much and cost them money.

Yet 200+ the player and competitor pool is much smaller and thus a lot easier to defend. Also the 60s/100s had some weak players inside them when they started out. This will be eliminated over time with the new system. Yet 200s+ you dont have that problem. The player pool is much more similar in skill level.

And they were probably much more experienced to act as a group to begin with and they knew how to defend their perks while this wasnt necessarily true for lower stakes.

No, the 30's and 60's guys trying to shotake complained so much to Stars that they threatened us with Battlenet, hence the ev roi was bought in. 100's guys don't complain, so the 200s+ have no incentive to change their system.

Cog nailed it.

Thats actually hillarious.. So i guess you guys going for 200s know what to do now.. Spam those email sent buttons.

No, god no, do not spam email buttons complaining of $200s+ divisions. All the hard work done for $60s and $100s could be undone by playing with that fire.

The $200s have actually been far more fair than the $100s and $60s were before they had EV systems. If you look at guys that have gotten into $200s, they are similar #s to what people have gotten in with the EV system in $60s and $100s.

I'd support EV ROI at every level, it's a far more objective way to get people into a group, and it takes away a lot of burden on players/friends/politics/random player that whines and whines and lobbies until enough ppl listen to him.

But the spamming Stars with emails is a bad idea.

BTW, if people want to keep talking about $200s or other levels in this $100s thread, make a thread for the level you want to talk about. This thread is for $100s division posts.

On the voting spreadsheet you can see that only 1 vote has been given out despite there being 6 people with 3k+ games (one of them being at 7.7k and another at 9.1k). Unless all of those guys are worse than pretty much everyone in the $200's division, which I highly doubt, the $200's aren't being fair at all.

Sure they let a few people in "early" (after 4k-6k games) because they were kicking some people down. But overall I don't think they're being any better than $60's or $100's were when they had the voting system.

I didn't see results on that spreadsheet to tell me how well or poorly those guys are doing. You could be right at this point, there may be a handful of guys that should be in and guys that are in kicked. The good players in the $200s group should want to make sure it's the best players in that group though. There is definitely incentive.

I dont think i deserve a vote or to be in the cartel, that is not why im posting this. Just posting discussion purposes cuz chiry said he doesnt / didnt know the results of the players so thought id post my results.

this is just my results vs the 200s cartel ( i do have more games at 200s vs some of 300s cartel and the rare fish, but those games arent included)



I also did not hunt or game select at my games at 200s (which is why i dont have a big sample vs any 1 player)


Here is the graph of the games from the cartels perspective




Rough last 500 games for me

Also this isnt just vs 360flip, its an alias of the entire cartel
(i actually only have like 3-5 games vs 360flip)

Im sorry but i dont this posted in 200s division thread, when i made my post it was in 100s thread. I was unaware it would be moved. I only made it cause of the post about the triers results being unknown. I respect the system of the 200s and am not asking them to change it, therefor i think the thread should be for the division to make announcements and ect and my post doesnt belong here as i dont want it used in any negative way about their system

Lol

That`s funny what this cartel thing done to ppl.

Why do you respect their system? You are beating them in ev and being held back because they play in a group. This is the way now obviously. Adapt or die I guess....

KGBking - First you should know I do respect you. Unfortunately this graph means your EV is -16 679$ witch is EV ROI -1,4% I guess. You're better than cartel in this sample and probably with better game selection as you mentioned it would be even better but still you didn't force them to share with you. For instance rules at 100$ are ridiculus. Too easy to make. I didn't say it because it's easier for me. Actually looking short term it's even worse because I'm trying to get into 200s too but I'm really happy they've got normall and hard to make rules cause there's hope that if I will get in I will not share with almost everyone like our current 100s division unfortunately does it. So rules are hard that's true but are also best for people inside(and we should be happy - one day it will recompense). We just have to overtake it.
GL at the tables,
FCDplayer

Why is it too easy to get into $100s when you can only get in if you're better than people inside?

If it's a question of too many people in the group, that's another story (bc you can just kick people out if someone deserving gets in).

KGB - You went out of your way to not complain. I think your posts are fine. Any sane person would not take your post offensively, you're just posting factual information, and you yourself said you don't think you should be in yet. I don't think you've said a single thing that is controversial or could upset someone in the $200s.

Your post kind of makes me sad though. You feel (wrongly or not, I do not know) that saying anything negative is going to result in it being harder for you to make a group. That sucks. It should be about your skills, not if you piss someone off because of your views. It's like when people got banned for saying a certain software product was overpriced. Hopefully you're just being way overcautious and you don't actually have to be so worried about such a tame post. If people really are bothered by that stuff they need to reexamine themselves.

Ryan - it's not about if you beat group. It's about witch option is more profitable for people inside(sharing or not). First of all hard rules make less triers. Second if there's chance someone will not handle swings(even if he beats overall cartel) in long term it's better to not share.

I'm not sure that is true. The ratio of triers in $200s vs $100s is not that different, is it? 7-9 tryers? Are ther 25-30 tryers in the $100s right now with 80-120k games played? I don't know that for sure, but I would imagine, no.

The sheer #s of population in the $100s is far larger than $200s to begin with, and the players at the $200s are better, so maybe it feels different than what it is, but it seems there may be more triers, relative to population, at the $200s right now.

I don't think hard rules make a lot less triers in theory either. What we've seen happen when there were no EV rules, is that many good players would have to play thousands more games, and that's not good for the people inside the groups either, because they are forced to lose money against another reg unnecessarily for longer. It's not like when EV rules were made, a huge madhouse of players all of a sudden said "great, I can now get into $100s!." No, only guys that could beat the players inside the group could now get into $100s. And the weakest guys inside are better off being outside or a level down than losing money to triers.

A strong example is if you have a group of 30 guys, and there are 10 triers better than the bottom 50% of your group. You can't keep them out, they'd just destroy half your group and make your group weak.

You can keep 1, 2, 3 good guys out, but you're just spreading losses out among a group, rather than kicking your weakest guy and replacing him with a good player. I think that's why it happens, it's not easy to see that it's -EV to have a system not based on skill, unless the system is totally broken, but voting hasn't shown to be so bad as to make the system totally broken. You can't keep out too much skill, but you can keep out some, it results in inefficiencies. It's also awkward to vote people out sometimes, especially if they are friends or people you do business with. It's far easier to turn a blind eye to a hard working guy you don't talk to who is trying to get in, even if he deserves it. It's easy to say "oh, what's 1% EV ROI here or there" when in reality in hypers that's a ton.

Are they? I think it's pretty likely the weakest $200 Cartel member is far worse than the best $100 Division member, just due to inefficiency.

If the $200s Cartel continues with the old cartel methods, fortifying their position to protect the weak while the $100s Division continually shuffles members in/out based on EV in a quick-to-judge manner, it cannot be long until almost every member in the $100s Division is stronger than the weakest 50% of the $200s Cartel. Presumably then a bloodbath happens I guess.

Not exactly...There is a certain cutoff in loyalty ranks in regards to SN and SNE - which is probably somewhere in that region... if you have a guy that achieved SNE and is weaker than a guy he is batteling who only is SN you can guess who endured this battle longer... Cuz the battle of endurance and attrition is a big part of all that business of moving up and down. And obv. bankroll and previously achieved wins/statuses provide a solid fundament in this. And since most people cannot achieve highest loyalty status at the lower stakes they have a big disadvantage to begin with.

So that would give even the weakest 50% of this group some advantage.

How is it easy to get into $100's division? You have to beat players already in $100's division in EV over 4k games (or more if you don't beat them by enough). If that's easy then that would mean the division has a lot of really weak members which would mean they SHOULD be letting a lot of people in, so they can kick out the weak guys already in. BTW you'll notice that despite it being "easy" to get into $100's no one kicked out has tried to get back in.

Letting people in doesn't mean the division has to get big, because you can (and $100's division does) kick a person out each time a person gets in.

Also if you are a strong player the EV system is just as good for you as a vote system since there's no danger of you getting kicked out. The only players a vote system are good for are mediocre regs already in the cartel.