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 river spot vs good reg  river spot vs good reg

05-22-2013 , 09:22 AM
Hey, 2+2 forum!

It was the 2nd hand in the match, the opp is a good reg (big winner at a big sample around this buy-in) and at the same time he was 4-5 tabling the same $15 hu's. I've never played him before, so I had no reads or stats, same for him, so I'm quite sure he sees me as a random.

Poker Stars, $14.39 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players

Hero (BB): 1,520 (76 bb)
SB: 1,480 (74 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3 K
SB raises to 40, Hero calls 20

Flop: (80) K 5 J (2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets 39, Hero calls 39

Turn: (158) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets 77, Hero calls 77

River: (312) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets 240, Hero ?


Pre, Flop and Turn seems pretty standart imo.
On the River he makes a big bet. We need to be good ~30% of the time here.

-Do u think he's ever v-betting worse with this sizing (AJ, QQ)?
-Do u think he has enough bluffs in his range?
-What can you make of his small turn, big river bets on this runnout?
-What would your value c/r range be OTF?
 river spot vs good reg Quote
05-22-2013 , 09:49 AM
call me a fish but the fact that your hand looks like exactly what it is from his perspective makes this a call for me. It´s not like i would expect you having twopair or a set here since i would expect to get raised somewhere in the hand.
 river spot vs good reg Quote
05-22-2013 , 04:29 PM
As played, call river of course.

-vbetting worse, yes that's possibility
-yes, he has enough bluffs in his range given bet sizing
-small turn bet could be a b/f scenario for him...given u call, big river bet might be to get u off Jx, good PP, 9x etc.
-I'm not c/r that flop, c/c it down as u did as there is little threat...either he's behind or way ahead.
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05-23-2013 , 04:12 AM
wouldn't you c/r OTF with let's say KT ?
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05-23-2013 , 08:36 AM
ez calldown, not much of a question.

what do you chaps do with j7?
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05-23-2013 , 11:33 AM
Hey,hello there.
To start off i think that the hand was played wrong from the get go.
I strongly believe that K3o is sure fold PF.Ithink calling is kind of spewy and to add i would say that it offers you some really big reverse implied odds if you get action like in this very hand so i would strongly recommend foldinG K3 off OOP.

You called and the on this flop i expect him to bet all of his range like Kx(that beat us),any two pair,and draw,gutshot or OESD and all of his air like Ax or so.
You call witch is pretty standard.....i would hate the c/r cause if he decides to bluff on the turn as well you fold all of his bluffing range and you are getting action only by better Kx,sets,two pair and so on so calling is fine.
The turn mioght improve some of his holdings equity wise to 4 to 16 outs like pair and OESD or pair and gutshot type hands so you have around the same equity if he doesnt have a Kx.
On this particular river the FDs have missed and only QT is there and your range is pretty well defined as Kx there so if you tell he is solid i think he is valuebetting this time than turning a weak made hand into a bluff like AcJc or so.
For me it's clearly a fold and if you didm't call the initial pf raise the decision woulda been much more easier on the river.
I hope i helped.
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05-23-2013 , 11:45 AM
folding pre is pretty nitty
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05-23-2013 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkfoldit
folding pre is pretty nitty
Not really
 river spot vs good reg Quote
05-23-2013 , 12:03 PM
readless?
 river spot vs good reg Quote
05-23-2013 , 12:32 PM
I mean its the bottom flatting range how nitty it can be.
 river spot vs good reg Quote
05-23-2013 , 12:33 PM
It's a pretty standard flat to a min-raise.
 river spot vs good reg Quote
05-23-2013 , 01:31 PM
Folding readless isn't nitty, it's possibly correct but ev of call vs fold is prob fairly similar.
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05-24-2013 , 02:27 AM
Not nitty at all guys.....c'mon yeah it's the early levels but K3o just plays poorly,not to say horrible plus we are OOP against an uknown guy and like in this spot if we get action then we are facing really tough decisions on the later streets.........EV of calling is breakeven-marginal leaning towards -EV.
And i think it would be more rational to call a raise OOP with hands that both cards can make us a decent pair.
Like i would prefer having K9 and call oop than to have A2o lets say,especially at higher blinds.
Somenone has a different opinion????
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05-24-2013 , 07:21 AM
There are definately better and worse hands to call OOP, but you are not allowed to choose between them. 10bbs deep it's better to open shove 22 rather than 87o, but it doesn't mean that you muck 87o just because 22 is more +EV. You just have to think if the specific hand vs specific opp is better than folding, and I believe that readless it's a call vs a min-raise (actually never even thought about any other play), and especially vs a good reg (which I marked as one before this hand was dealt) who I assume is gonna be oppenning closer to 90 or 100percent.
But still, I don't have enough sample size to see my results and have a better idea...

And, kakospaidis, would you fold A2o in this spot also?
 river spot vs good reg Quote
05-24-2013 , 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfc
There are definately better and worse hands to call OOP, but you are not allowed to choose between them. 10bbs deep it's better to open shove 22 rather than 87o, but it doesn't mean that you muck 87o just because 22 is more +EV. You just have to think if the specific hand vs specific opp is better than folding, and I believe that readless it's a call vs a min-raise (actually never even thought about any other play), and especially vs a good reg (which I marked as one before this hand was dealt) who I assume is gonna be oppenning closer to 90 or 100percent.
But still, I don't have enough sample size to see my results and have a better idea...

And, kakospaidis, would you fold A2o in this spot also?
No way i would fold A2 in this spot,but A2o consists the bottom of my OOP calling range PF.I make it up by raising 90%-100% of my BTNs but again A2o is the bottom of my range for calling.
I would fold A2o if the blinds were like 25/50 and higher and the stacks became much shallower.Equity wise A2o is of course better but both cards making decent pairs that can face significant action is much more important to me and i think theory-based it's better!!!
That's how i see it.
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05-24-2013 , 03:24 PM
Folding pre is extremely nitty- the guy's 5 tabling for goodness sake. In fact, 3betting>folding at this stage in the match. As played I probably call, although there's no way is a 5 tabling $15 reg value betting worse.

It's a pretty close decision and the EV difference between calling and folding is probably going to be pretty negligible, so don't beat yourself up if you call and he shows down a set.
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05-25-2013 , 12:11 AM
River is probably a fold vs described villain. He can be value betting worse (like Jx, QQ) on this river, but I doubt he chooses this sizing with that range.

Preflop you can go either way, K3o lies on the boundary between calling, folding and 3betting so it doesn't really matter.
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