$15 Hypers - Interesting river shove - Heads Up SNG and Spin and Gos -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

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$15 Hypers - Interesting river shove

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01-29-2012 , 04:46 AM

DarkSide11

journeyman

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 311

Early in the game. What to do on the river?

Poker Stars, $14.69 Buy-in (10/20 blinds) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 2 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #11734982

BB: 500 (25 bb)
Hero (SB): 500 (25 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6

Hero raises to 40, BB calls 20

Flop: (80) 5

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 40, BB calls 40

Turn: (160) 9

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 80, BB calls 80

River: (320) 2

(2 players)
BB bets 340 and is all-in

Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.

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01-29-2012 , 05:00 AM

Shove

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 649

I guess you should folds - 43, 5x is very possible and I dont think you see that many bluffs.

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01-29-2012 , 05:53 AM

Haru

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 277

this is fold imo. I usually c-bet less (20-30) on this type of flop because
once he called your c-bet, he has better hand than A6 usually. ( pp or K high is possible)
However, I think pp or K high is not gonna call your turn bet.
what do you expect for him to call with on the turn?

Since A6 is not strong hand, we have 2 options on the turn:
1) bet turn, check river
2) check turn and bet river/ call his bet

I think 2) is much better because
-your range is weaker than 1 so that pp or K high might hero call
-you can also induce a bluff against float.
-you lose minimum against better hands.

As played, fold river.

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01-29-2012 , 07:03 AM

pavels4444

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 949

when fish donks a river like this, it's almost always nuts! In this case, probably 5x.

As mentioned, cbet smaller. I think 30-35 is fine.

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01-29-2012 , 08:43 AM

virukunn

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 482

Ez fold.
I would check back turn to induce and call on the river or bet if checked to.

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01-29-2012 , 11:19 PM

xleex2

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 288

Id bet 60 turn fold river shove

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01-29-2012 , 11:20 PM

enprinte

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 4,095

Fold river shove.

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01-29-2012 , 11:35 PM

h1nt

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,299

super easy check back turn

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01-29-2012 , 11:59 PM

braminc

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,086

what are we getting value from betting flops like this? i think checking flop, betting turn gets more value and allows him to bluff some.

as played standard fold.

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01-30-2012 , 12:25 AM

#10

h1nt

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,299

yea wanted to add about checking flop back but forgot
ty braminc

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01-30-2012 , 08:04 AM

#11

pavels4444

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 949

I think checking flop is generally bad. I mean, are you checking your air here??? I hope not. Therefore you should cbet your value hands as well. I think it is good to cbet smaller, both with bluffs and Ax/5x. You can actually check the turn to induce a river bet from random floats. Without reads, I would never check back this flop

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01-30-2012 , 08:10 AM

#12

DarkSide11

journeyman

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 311

I cbet 100% here. You will be surprised how often people bluff raise here and shove turn.

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01-30-2012 , 09:43 AM

#13

h1nt

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,299

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavels4444

this question about balancing and been discussed million times I believe
the thing is you dont have to balance vs bad players + you dont have to balance vs bad regs
if unbalanced play has more EV why do you have to?

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01-30-2012 , 10:57 AM

#14

pavels4444

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 949

Quote:

Originally Posted by h1nt

I believe Im not balancing by cbetting as I'm cbetting this board 100% ! I think you are balancing by not cbetting.

I think we can argue here for a while, I still think it is better to cbet here even against bad players cuz they might float with nothing + spaz raise and then check the turn as they don't know what to do

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01-30-2012 , 11:06 AM

#15

braminc

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,086

op said this spot was readless. I personally don't think MOST players float OOP on Ahigh dry boards to spazz off on later streets, but i suppose I could be wrong on that.

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01-30-2012 , 11:14 AM

#16

pavels4444

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 949

Quote:

Originally Posted by braminc

op said this spot was readless. I personally don't think MOST players float OOP on Ahigh dry boards to spazz off on later streets, but i suppose I could be wrong on that.

but i also don't think that players will try to bluff on this board if we check. Why not give them an opportunity by cbetting. I know, generally people play fit/fold here and will not c r anyways, but Ive seen people float at the 15s (when I played it) with lots of trash. Overall it is pretty tough to get some value here.

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01-30-2012 , 03:29 PM

#17

ohly

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 3,696

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavels4444

I believe Im not balancing by cbetting as I'm cbetting this board 100% ! I think you are balancing by not cbetting.

i don't think you know what balancing is.
i think the high fold equity which we definitely have doesn't mean we should check, but that we should cbet smaller. dunno how brilliant villain is, but even a piece of wood should get suspicous once we check the flop...

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01-30-2012 , 05:36 PM

#18

pavels4444

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 949

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohly

sorry, maybe i didn't use a proper vocabulary. I'm not a native speaker.
However I said in my first post in this thread that hero should cbet smaller! I think it is better to cbet but cbet smaller than 40

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01-30-2012 , 05:39 PM

#19

h1nt

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,299

Well you also can bet/pot against aggro tards like me, can work fantastically sometimes, not rly often tho

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01-30-2012 , 11:51 PM

#20

mela

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,228

Bet the flop like 30-40, you can still get value from pps that they didn't 3bet pre or some KJ type of floats. But these hands are likely to fold to your turn DB, so as played I'd check back on turn.

As played river looks like an easy fold. When they c/c c/c and then front shove, it usually is a very strong hand. If there were a flush draw on flop I might end up calling but that's just a might.

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01-31-2012 , 06:35 AM

#21

braminc

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,086

Quote:

Originally Posted by pavels4444

I believe Im not balancing by cbetting as I'm cbetting this board 100% ! I think you are balancing by not cbetting.

my plan of betting air and checking back ax/5x here is NOT balancing, is exploitative to the average player who will play this board very fit/fold imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mela

If you're admitting (like everyone else) that you can really only get 1 street of value here and must check turn, then why don't we check the flop, no scare cards can come, and have MORE hands we get value from on turn, possibly get bluff led into, have a higher chance at 2 streets of value, AND not be stacking off vs 5x like ever...

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01-31-2012 , 10:40 AM

#22

mela

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,228

Yeah you're right. I'm just not sure how villain will play 77 or 33 type hands (if they didn't shove that) if we check back flop and overcards come on turn and river. But in overall I agree with you that flop check might be better.

Btw, we still have to stack off vs his 5x if he leads on turn and river due to stack size.

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01-31-2012 , 04:45 PM

#23

3tothev

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 374

Bet 30 on flop, check turn call river as played.

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