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Originally Posted by elpsnot
The only reason its +EV is because of FE pre-flop and the game dynamic, our 3 bet shove mine as well be 72o or ATC for that matter,which i would way rather have.
I don't think that's quite correct. When villain is minraising his BTN above like 44% this shallow, and we 3bet shove A5s, it's not +EV due to FE exclusively. It's actually +EV because villain can't come up with a profitable calling range. Imagine an inflection point, and let's call it x -- it falls somewhere within the range of all dealt hands. If he calls anywhere between just barely tighter to much tighter than x, then fold equity contributes significantly to our profit from shoving. If he calls anywhere between just barely looser to much looser than x, then our shove is extracting straight up value from his too-weak calling range. So basically he's screwed.
This is not similarly true of shoving 72o or ATC. If you want to shove the latter due to gameflow -- your image is right for it, you've been tight or tame recently, villain is responsive to these things, it's your first or second 3bet shove of the game, etc. -- then you're very much at the mercy of villain's calling range, as well as the difference between that calling range and his raising range. What this means is that A5s is not functionally equivalent to 72o and ATC. The latter can only operate as viable 3bet shoving hands if all the conditions I laid out in this paragraph apply; the former is more flexibly 3bet shove-worthy and can be jammed accordingly.
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I think A5s is just the worst hand to do it with, we have a hand that has tremendous flop value and its the middle of our range and we waste it by shoving.And when we get called we are only getting called by better just about all the time.
That's fair enough and like I said it depends on situational factors specific to the match which course hero should take. And I agree that against many people who have a high enough raising frequency, calling pf rather than shoving will still be a more appealing prospect. I'm still a little troubled, though, by your use of statements like "when we get called we are only getting called by better." This is not necessarily true, for one thing; but more importantly, this does not by itself suffice to indicate if 3bet shoving is +EV, since fold equity is a relevant factor. So I'm not sure why you mention it in isolation, like it has much meaning by itself.
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not saying shoving pre is a bad move it is +EV just A5s is a terrible hand to do it with.
Okay, well it sounded in earlier posts like you
were implying it was a bad move or non-viable option, but that doesn't matter anymore.
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And the 12bbs, I was just saying we are shoving so wide that villian is gonna be calling us down a lot lighter due to efetive stax, not sure where it ranks on NASH though.
You can profitably open-shove A5s 12 BBs deep very easily according to Nash (and Chubukov, incidentally.) Actually, you can profitably open-shove A5s
face-up as high as ~36 BBs deep according to Chubukov.
As for 3bet shoving A5s 12 BBs deep, I think paradoxically that we should by default be a little cautious there, because a lot of villains will resort to a strategy when that shallow of:
- limp or fold marginal or okay hands pf
- shove decent to good hands
- minraise/call with strong to premium hands
So I actually would advocate being a little more paranoid about minraises 12 BBs deep than minraises 23 BBs deep unless or until decent reads and patterns concerning villain's 12 BB play are somehow established.