Full Tilt Poker $11 + $0.75 Heads Up Shootout No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 2 players
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BTN/SB: t1575 26.25 BBs
Hero (BB): t1425 23.75 BBs

Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is BB with A 5
BTN/SB raises to t120, Hero calls t60

Flop: (t240) 2 J 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets t60, Hero calls t60

Turn: (t360) T (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets t60, Hero raises to t240, BTN/SB calls t180

River: (t840) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets t1005 all in, BTN/SB folds



against a weak tight player?
he minbetted the flop and turn in some hands before and folded to a raise.

can you explain why you called preflop, called flop, check/raised the turn, and overbet-shoved the river?

preflop: A5suited is good enough to defend the blind

flop: as i mentioned before, he minbetted the flop some hands before, which more than often indicates pure weakness and as he continued to minbet the turns again he always folded to my raise.

turn: i raised him to force him to lay his most likely weak hand down, i also think it´s not that because of the board with possible straight or flush we can represent

river: that´s the question. since he´s weak and often folds i think i can still force him to fold bottom pairs and hands like that. but i have to admit i was thinking about just checking and giving the hand up. which would also be fine i think and i often would do against other players.
but i decided to shove given to the facts i mentioned above.

just shove pre imo.

Wait, so 3bet shoving A5s for 23BB is standard?

vs someone that minraises a ton? yes?

I dunno how I feel about shoving preflop. I guess it depends on how wide he's opening.


So when he calls the raise here, shouldn't that scare you? Very very easy for him to have a J or a T here. Though a weak tight player might throw up his hands and fold a T because "he must have been slowplaying the J".

I don't hate it because his goofy minraises deserve to be punished.... But if he's doing this, isn't it likely he plays his value hands the same way? A lot of people will minraise / minraise / PSB the river with a huge range so it's hard to tell. When he calls the turn (assuming you've raised his min-raises before like this and he folded), I expect him to be making a stand and I just give up on the hand.

@borderline: i agree that raising preflop is definitely a option, but i wouldn´t raise all in, i think 3betting 360 or 450 is a good betsize to bring him to fold, since we are still in the early blind stages.

@jumbo: i know what u mean and it might be possible, but the little experience i made is that villains who have been and feel pushed around often push all in when they got a hand like tptk or tpgk (KJ,AJ etc.), also considering that the board is very draw heavy. so assuming he calls my raise knowing that i raise him standardly due to his weak betsize like i did before, i think players like him often tend to do this with broadway cards like Ax,Kx,Qx,PP or weak pairs, but of course i should look out if he´s an reasonable good player or not.
if the rivers would be a blank, i guess i would just give the hand up. I also think that is a very close situation and i shouldn´t play like this regulary, since people often do not fold hands like tptk at lower stakes. i think it really depends on what kind of opponent u are playing with. but i also admit that i´m just started playing HUSNG and am not much experienced.

your hand looks so bluffy here....U rep a set or JT and thats it, because of your line and board....

Why dont you c/r flop?? there is a ton of cards we can dbl barrell on turn, that give us pot equity and fold equity.

While the line you take here is just weird and bluffy. You polarize ur hand on the turn and it looks like you have way more bluffs here than value.

And shoving A5s for 23bbs is just ri-tard move, we have a hand that has way better post-flop potential, and shoving is spew and high variance big time.

lol no, it can be fine against the right sort of opponent

against this guy, I wouldn't do it though, cause OP says he's weak tight

if he's tight enough on the BTN, I might even not hate folding pf; however, he apparently min-bets postflop a lot? so that makes calling pf more viable, since we can see four or five cards cheaply, or get to showdown/draw cheaply

which is why I would never raise on any street here, and just call down; I mean really, why are we turning our hand into a semi-bluff when we're getting great pot odds both to draw to a pair/straight and/or to take A high to showdown?

No it's fine.

vs. what kind of opponent??? and what hand range are we super dominating with A5s to shove AI pre....maybe when we hit 12bbs its profitable

are you serious?

just to make sure we're on the same page: we're talking about 3bet shoving A5s -- not open shoving it from the BTN; we're in the BB remember -- while 23 BBs deep

now you ask "what hand range we're super dominating with A5s to shove AI pre?"

okay, so first of all, it's not about trying to be "super dominating" -- that's just not happening with A5s in general, except when we make nutted hands postflop

so our task here (and throughout most typical HUSNG spots) is not to worry about being super dominating, but simply taking the most +EV path

you've read and assimilated this by Insane_Steve, right?

so we can (and should) profitably 3bet shove A5s 23 BBs deep against certain kinds of opponents: those who have a high enough pf raising frequency this shallow -- roughly speaking, above 44% -- and against whom our A5s is EV neutral or worse OOP postflop due to whatever factors existing in how villain is playing against us, match circumstances, insufficient reads, or whatever

now you can argue that calling with A5s pf is more +EV for situational reason x or y, but if the basic element of a high villain BTN raising frequency is present, 3bet shoving A5s this shallow pf will always be available as a +EV option -- so it's far from ******ed, unlike, I'm afraid, your remark that it only becomes profitable when we reach 12 BBs (!), which suggests there are profound problems with how you approach the late and endgame phase of HUSNGs (though I could easily be wrong about that)

The only reason its +EV is because of FE pre-flop and the game dynamic, our 3 bet shove mine as well be 72o or ATC for that matter,which i would way rather have.

I think A5s is just the worst hand to do it with, we have a hand that has tremendous flop value and its the middle of our range and we waste it by shoving.And when we get called we are only getting called by better just about all the time.

not saying shoving pre is a bad move it is +EV just A5s is a terrible hand to do it with.

And the 12bbs, I was just saying we are shoving so wide that villian is gonna be calling us down a lot lighter due to efetive stax, not sure where it ranks on NASH though.

I don't think that's quite correct. When villain is minraising his BTN above like 44% this shallow, and we 3bet shove A5s, it's not +EV due to FE exclusively. It's actually +EV because villain can't come up with a profitable calling range. Imagine an inflection point, and let's call it x -- it falls somewhere within the range of all dealt hands. If he calls anywhere between just barely tighter to much tighter than x, then fold equity contributes significantly to our profit from shoving. If he calls anywhere between just barely looser to much looser than x, then our shove is extracting straight up value from his too-weak calling range. So basically he's screwed.

This is not similarly true of shoving 72o or ATC. If you want to shove the latter due to gameflow -- your image is right for it, you've been tight or tame recently, villain is responsive to these things, it's your first or second 3bet shove of the game, etc. -- then you're very much at the mercy of villain's calling range, as well as the difference between that calling range and his raising range. What this means is that A5s is not functionally equivalent to 72o and ATC. The latter can only operate as viable 3bet shoving hands if all the conditions I laid out in this paragraph apply; the former is more flexibly 3bet shove-worthy and can be jammed accordingly.

That's fair enough and like I said it depends on situational factors specific to the match which course hero should take. And I agree that against many people who have a high enough raising frequency, calling pf rather than shoving will still be a more appealing prospect. I'm still a little troubled, though, by your use of statements like "when we get called we are only getting called by better." This is not necessarily true, for one thing; but more importantly, this does not by itself suffice to indicate if 3bet shoving is +EV, since fold equity is a relevant factor. So I'm not sure why you mention it in isolation, like it has much meaning by itself.

Okay, well it sounded in earlier posts like you were implying it was a bad move or non-viable option, but that doesn't matter anymore.

You can profitably open-shove A5s 12 BBs deep very easily according to Nash (and Chubukov, incidentally.) Actually, you can profitably open-shove A5s face-up as high as ~36 BBs deep according to Chubukov.

As for 3bet shoving A5s 12 BBs deep, I think paradoxically that we should by default be a little cautious there, because a lot of villains will resort to a strategy when that shallow of:
- limp or fold marginal or okay hands pf
- shove decent to good hands
- minraise/call with strong to premium hands
So I actually would advocate being a little more paranoid about minraises 12 BBs deep than minraises 23 BBs deep unless or until decent reads and patterns concerning villain's 12 BB play are somehow established.

I'd bluff-shove over your turn c/r a lot. And I mean A LOT.

Shove pre if he's opening a high %age of buttons. Flop is good to c/r aswell. As played I don't think your random $11 minbetting donk is gunna fold this river with anything that he liked enough to call your turn c/r

I'm pretty sure I've heard in mersenarry's video's that if someone is raising 100% of their button's, we can use nash in this scenario and have his raise be the bb (since, if he's making it the same amount every hand, it's essentially a bb)

and since we don't know anything about guy's minraising tendancy i am just leaning towards 100% and we're essentially shoving for 11.5bb.