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Old 09-20-2010, 03:45 PM   #1
ohly
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11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

hi everybody,

opponent is a not so good player. he is loose passive pre, donks 2/3 of the time and calls down waaay too light. he cbets close to 100% however.

i still thought c/r flop would be too thin, although in hindsight my approach might be a little nitty? i just don't see a lot of value hands he can have.

on the turn i think there is tons of value to be gained because he will call with so many heart draws and since he doesnt raise alot pre, his range is more weighted to big cards and pp's.

on the river i am probably toast?

comments on every street much appreciated!


NL Holdem $100(BB) Replayer
Hero ($3,370)
($2,630)

Dealt to Hero T 9

raises to $200, Hero calls $100

FLOP ($400) 2 8 9

Hero checks, bets $200, Hero calls $200

TURN ($800) 2 8 9 3

Hero bets $400, calls $400

RIVER ($1,600) 2 8 9 3 9

Hero bets $900, raises to $1,830 (AI)
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:07 PM   #2
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohly View Post
opponent is a not so good player. he is loose passive pre, donks 2/3 of the time and calls down waaay too light. he cbets close to 100% however.
If he donks 2/3 of the time and cbets 100% then he is not passive...loose/aggressive is more likely, passive players tend to check/call more than they bet or raise.

Oh, and I would prob ck/call the turn rather than lead...

Last edited by Fydor_8; 09-20-2010 at 04:08 PM. Reason: I just realized that you wrote loose/passive PRE...my bad
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:24 PM   #3
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

meh.. i don't see what's so bad about c/r flop and getting it in.
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:23 AM   #4
ohly
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

*bump*

my hands always die, are say so trivial?
both flatting flop and donking turn seem debatable, but i am still unsure about that.
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:32 AM   #5
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

I'd ch/c the turn also.
River discision sucks, unless you have a solid read about this villain, I think we should fold.
From villains POV I would play my flush the same.

What should we do with A9 on the river?
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:18 AM   #6
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

raise/fold flop
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:20 AM   #7
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by borderline View Post
meh.. i don't see what's so bad about c/r flop and getting it in.
ur basically never ahead if he shoves over your chk/raise thats the problem,
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:28 AM   #8
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by Fydor_8 View Post
If he donks 2/3 of the time and cbets 100% then he is not passive...loose/aggressive is more likely
He mentioned villain was passive pre.

Given his 100% Cbet, i'd c/r this flop for sure.
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:42 AM   #9
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by rollinas View Post
ur basically never ahead if he shoves over your chk/raise thats the problem,
This board makes villains shove over with a LOT of different combos of OESD/FD/overs. We're usually behind his shoving range, but we are putting so much money in with our c/r I don't think it's sensible to fold after that.

In short: don't c/r flop to fold.

And I like c/c, c/c more than c/r flop. I don't play the hand like that, so hard to comment on the river. Very unlikely you are ahead though, so looks like a fold. Yuk.
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:48 AM   #10
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

well, im not saying my way is the best or anything, i was thinking that to play it other way profitably is very difficult because there is so many bad cards for us and his range is super wide on flop, i dont have a problem to raise like 525 and fold to a shove
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:22 AM   #11
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by t1lt View Post
River discision sucks, unless you have a solid read about this villain, I think we should fold.

I think the way hand was played folding river is crazy

edit: I also think that if you dont know what to do if you get raised you shouldnt be leading.

Last edited by qetou; 09-21-2010 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:34 AM   #12
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

why no raise on the flop ?
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:03 AM   #13
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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I think the way hand was played folding river is crazy

edit: I also think that if you dont know what to do if you get raised you shouldnt be leading.
where did i say that i didn't know what to do? on the turn i wanted to lead/fold.

river isn't really a lead, it is more of a follow up bet. do you mean i should be c/c river? could be good, as he will have some whiffed draws i think. still i thought my hand was too good to bluffcatch, maybe i overevaluated it?
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:57 AM   #14
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by rollinas View Post
raise/fold flop
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollinas View Post
ur basically never ahead if he shoves over your chk/raise thats the problem,
then raise/folding the flop is bad because you're turning your hand into 43o when you c/r fold here.


T9o vs every single flush draw that has either: 1 over, 2 overs, pair, gutshot, or a OESD to go with it:

Board: 9h 8s 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.472% 52.99% 00.48% 32001 290.50 { Ts9d }
Hand 1: 46.528% 46.05% 00.48% 27808 290.50 { AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, Kh8h, Kh7h, Kh6h, Kh5h, Kh4h, Kh3h, QhJh, QhTh, Qh8h, Qh7h, Qh6h, Qh5h, Qh4h, Qh3h, JTs, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, Jh5h, Jh4h, Jh3h, Th8h, T7s, Th6h, Th5h, Th4h, Th3h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 8h4h, 8s4s, 8h3h, 7h6h, 7h5h, 6h5h, JTo }

T9o vs the above and every single 9x.

Board: 9h 8s 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.884% 46.68% 04.21% 69779 6287.50 { Ts9d }
Hand 1: 49.116% 44.91% 04.21% 67136 6287.50 { AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, A9s, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, K9s, Kh8h, Kh7h, Kh6h, Kh5h, Kh4h, Kh3h, QhJh, QhTh, Q9s, Qh8h, Qh7h, Qh6h, Qh5h, Qh4h, Qh3h, J9s+, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, Jh5h, Jh4h, Jh3h, T9s, Th8h, T7s, Th6h, Th5h, Th4h, Th3h, 92s+, 8h7h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 8h4h, 8s4s, 8h3h, 7h6h, 7h5h, 6h5h, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o+, T9o, 92o+ }



T9o vs the above + sets and overpairs:

Board: 9h 8s 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.704% 41.23% 03.47% 75518 6356.50 { Ts9d }
Hand 1: 55.296% 51.83% 03.47% 94919 6356.50 { 88+, 22, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, A9s, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, K9s, Kh8h, Kh7h, Kh6h, Kh5h, Kh4h, Kh3h, QhJh, QhTh, Q9s, Qh8h, Qh7h, Qh6h, Qh5h, Qh4h, Qh3h, J9s+, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, Jh5h, Jh4h, Jh3h, T9s, Th8h, T7s, Th6h, Th5h, Th4h, Th3h, 92s+, 8h7h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 8h4h, 8s4s, 8h3h, 7h6h, 7h5h, 6h5h, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o+, T9o, 92o+ }


T9o vs the above + strong 8s (Q8o+/Q8s+)

Board: 9h 8s 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.767% 46.82% 02.95% 101050 6356.50 { Ts9d }
Hand 1: 50.233% 47.29% 02.95% 102057 6356.50 { 88+, 22, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, A9s-A8s, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, K9s-K8s, Kh7h, Kh6h, Kh5h, Kh4h, Kh3h, QhJh, QhTh, Q9s-Q8s, Qh7h, Qh6h, Qh5h, Qh4h, Qh3h, J9s+, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, Jh5h, Jh4h, Jh3h, T9s, Th8h, T7s, Th6h, Th5h, Th4h, Th3h, 92s+, 8h7h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 8h4h, 8s4s, 8h3h, 7h6h, 7h5h, 6h5h, A9o-A8o, K9o-K8o, Q9o-Q8o, J9o+, T9o, 92o+ }


T9 vs the above and T7o/76o and T7s and 76s.

Board: 9h 8s 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.675% 48.95% 02.73% 117272 6531.00 { Ts9d }
Hand 1: 48.325% 45.60% 02.73% 109246 6531.00 { 88+, 22, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, A9s-A8s, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, K9s-K8s, Kh7h, Kh6h, Kh5h, Kh4h, Kh3h, QhJh, QhTh, Q9s-Q8s, Qh7h, Qh6h, Qh5h, Qh4h, Qh3h, J9s+, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, Jh5h, Jh4h, Jh3h, T9s, Th8h, T7s, Th6h, Th5h, Th4h, Th3h, 92s+, 8h7h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 8h4h, 8s4s, 8h3h, 76s, 7h5h, 6h5h, A9o-A8o, K9o-K8o, Q9o-Q8o, J9o+, T9o, T7o, 92o+, 76o }



So we're fine with getting it in, imo, if he 3bet shoves over our c/r. Also, OP says that villain cbets like 100% of the time. Even with all the combos I added, that's only 28.5% of his range, so villain is going to bet/fold roughly 70% of the time, which means our initial c/r earns us.. 400ish chips.


And even versus his strongest shove range (which we have 44.7% equity against), it's only -ev by like.. 36 chips (if i'm doing calculations correctly).

Last edited by borderline; 09-21-2010 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:30 AM   #15
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

as you can see coin flip is your best expectation, Im not surprised why you are BE
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:39 AM   #16
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by rollinas View Post
as you can see coin flip is your best expectation, Im not surprised why you are BE
yeah.. a coinflip when he shoves, and the fact that when he bets/folds 70% of the time here, you gain 400 chips which is 20% of villain's stack.

and I'm far from BE. but comical that you think that.


Question for you. Villain shoves "22+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo". This is 20.1%. Without stoving and on in game time, what hand are you calling with here versus this shove range?
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:42 AM   #17
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

[c/c c/c is the best line unimproved imo, donking turn is kinda bad coz he can raise w so many hands. As played obv call his jam, I'd jam it in instead of b/c'ing but pot size kinda sux (which is also a problem OP caused fwiw)
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:58 AM   #18
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by borderline View Post
and I'm far from BE. but comical that you think that.
no offense, I've read that "info" in this forum in past few days, somebody wrote that you are be @ 6s or smth like that.
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:00 AM   #19
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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Originally Posted by rollinas View Post
as you can see coin flip is your best expectation, Im not surprised why you are BE


I'll give you a hint: you never need to be ahead 50%+ for getting it in @ any street in a HUSNG.
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:03 AM   #20
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

no need getting personal here imo. if his advice is based on solid assumptions, and borderline always tries to support his arguments with logic, i don't care which level he plays.

just one problem with your assumptions borderline: he isn't opening 100%, more like 1/3 of his hands.

meh, maybe my lead on the turn, that seemed good at the time i made it, was actually bs, although i still don't know why. do you think my line looks weak, jspazz? imo i will lead alot of value hands as he will check back alot of his weaker hands. is this turn particularly good to double barrel?
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Old 09-21-2010, 11:53 AM   #21
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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no offense, I've read that "info" in this forum in past few days, somebody wrote that you are be @ 6s or smth like that.
that info is quite false.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:42 PM   #22
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

Your decision on the flop has a lot to do with how villain plays his hand on future streets...vs someone who plays tough/tricky I might be more inclined to get it in on the flop because my hand is defiantly marginal and most turn/river cards will be tough to play against. But the main thing about the flop decision to get it in vs check/calling is because its clearly a spot where your either a little ahead or way behind..also against the described villain Im not sure he can fold some hands that Id want him to fold in order to fully maximize my fold equity...if hes a station it wont be as effective obv
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:55 PM   #23
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

This hand is nowhere near as difficult as its being made out to be. This is an incredibly standard spot. C/r the flop with the intention of getting it in is absolutely fine with these stack sizes. You have TP on a very drawy flop. He's getting it in plenty wide enough that its a clear +++EV c/r/call.

An alternative line is just to b/b3ai on the flop.
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:09 PM   #24
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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no offense, I've read that "info" in this forum in past few days, somebody wrote that you are be @ 6s or smth like that.
no offense to you either, but if you checkraise/fold flop with top pair a lot when shallow then i think you can be glad if you end up breakeven
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Old 09-21-2010, 02:17 PM   #25
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Re: 11.50 HUSNG TP on drawy board

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no offense to you either, but if you checkraise/fold flop with top pair a lot when shallow then i think you can be glad if you end up breakeven
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