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Old 06-25-2012, 03:11 AM   #101
klink10k
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

meh daut pretty much correct, but i think it should be a free market here, and there isn't much precedent to criticize people in their own threads unless you are stealthmuk and angry at everyone. There are tons of stuff in marketplace that are just absurdly -ev...

tbh, takeaway your PCA bink and your live + online results are slightly above average at best.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:41 AM   #102
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

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Originally Posted by shaniac View Post
I did miss you that said "10K HU" but I still think you paint things with a broad brush. Maybe it's "similarly ludicrous" but it's hard to see as "orders of magnitude" more.
It doesn't get more absurd markup wise than someone who isn't even a HU specialist sell to the $10K HU at 1.3. It's literally impossible to draw a profit for investors, or even close. There are a couple of those in Galen's package, but 1.3 for the $10K is leaps and bounds the worst investment I've ever seen. I think Galen comparing his package to Lind's is completely reasonable. While there are some bad value tournaments, some are extremely good value.

I completely understand where Galen is coming from. I would never invest in this package, but I can see why others are. Online results don't mean all that much when it comes to deep stack live events. I'd take Galen Hall in a $10K then a TON of other people with good online results.

The reason for the outcry about this package is simply just the non-standard high markups. Anything above 1.3-1.35 outside of the WSOPME seems to be frowned upon by investors, which is not correct at all. I'd rather pay 1.5 for an elite player in some $2K tournament in Florida than 1.2 to someone playing the $25K Bellagio or something similar. There seems to be this odd misconception by many people who buy pieces that there should be a set markup that you should never exceed. People got **** for selling to the WSOPME at 1.5-1.8, which is a much better by than paying 1.3 for an online grinder in the PCA $10K.

I don't think the market will change either way after this package. People will still see high markups and not take a piece. Others will continue to buy pieces a high premium for a magnitude of reasons. They may want a sweat, they may want to invest in a big name, etc. Right now I strongly believe we're at the valley of the marketplace, and that it will grow, especially if FTP funds come back etc. No matter what, MP will always be around and kicking.

I mean, people are still buying pieces of this package even after all of the flaming. What does that tell you? People want to invest in a very good player and have a big chance of having a huge return in their investment. If they want to invest their money, let them do it however they want. if Galen decides the only way selling action due to taxes is to sell at high markups, let him do it. It definitely feels like Galen is the scapegoat here. There are jus so many absurd packages in Marketplace right now. I could find at least a handfull of packages that are worse quite easily.

I am NOT against people posting their complaints about markup at all, though. They have as much right to complain as the seller has the right to sell at high markups. It's clear to me Galen was not malicious at all in putting up this package. Calling it unethical is just ignorant.


Quote:
tbh, takeaway your PCA bink and your live + online results are slightly above average at best.
Not that it matters too much, but this just is not true. He has over $1M in cashes even if you took away his PCA score. So with like $3.5 mill in cashes, tons of people saying he's an elite MTT player, etc. I'd think he's an elite player.

I wish I had "slightly average results..."

Last edited by CompleteDonk; 06-25-2012 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:08 AM   #103
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

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Originally Posted by CompleteDonk View Post
It doesn't get more absurd markup wise than someone who isn't even a HU specialist sell to the $10K HU at 1.3. It's literally impossible to draw a profit for investors, or even close. There are a couple of those in Galen's package, but 1.3 for the $10K is leaps and bounds the worst investment I've ever seen. I think Galen comparing his package to Lind's is completely reasonable. While there are some bad value tournaments, some are extremely good value.

I completely understand where Galen is coming from. I would never invest in this package, but I can see why others are. Online results don't mean all that much when it comes to deep stack live events. I'd take Galen Hall in a $10K then a TON of other people with good online results.

The reason for the outcry about this package is simply just the non-standard high markups. Anything above 1.3-1.35 outside of the WSOPME seems to be frowned upon by investors, which is not correct at all. I'd rather pay 1.5 for an elite player in some $2K tournament in Florida than 1.2 to someone playing the $25K Bellagio or something similar. There seems to be this odd misconception by many people who buy pieces that there should be a set markup that you should never exceed. People got **** for selling to the WSOPME at 1.5-1.8, which is a much better by than paying 1.3 for an online grinder in the PCA $10K.

I don't think the market will change either way after this package. People will still see high markups and not take a piece. Others will continue to buy pieces a high premium for a magnitude of reasons. They may want a sweat, they may want to invest in a big name, etc. Right now I strongly believe we're at the valley of the marketplace, and that it will grow, especially if FTP funds come back etc. No matter what, MP will always be around and kicking.

I mean, people are still buying pieces of this package even after all of the flaming. What does that tell you? People want to invest in a very good player and have a big chance of having a huge return in their investment. If they want to invest their money, let them do it however they want. if Galen decides the only way selling action due to taxes is to sell at high markups, let him do it. It definitely feels like Galen is the scapegoat here. There are jus so many absurd packages in Marketplace right now. I could find at least a handfull of packages that are worse quite easily.

I am NOT against people posting their complaints about markup at all, though. They have as much right to complain as the seller has the right to sell at high markups. It's clear to me Galen was not malicious at all in putting up this package. Calling it unethical is just ignorant.




Not that it matters too much, but this just is not true. He has over $1M in cashes even if you took away his PCA score. So with like $3.5 mill in cashes, tons of people saying he's an elite MTT player, etc. I'd think he's an elite player.

I wish I had "slightly average results..."


A lot has been written in this thread, with people arguing both for and against the package and how Galen has approached this. I'd just like to come in and compliment Brandon on this post - very articulate and mature words for someone so young.

Just like everyone else, I was a little shocked when I saw the contents of this package and I do think the markup may be too high in some instances. But I think two key things have been touched on: people love a sweat and this is one of the best sweat opportunities ever given in the 2+2 marketplace; furthermore the bink potential - as Brandon alludes to - is very high as Galen has proven that he is capable of huge scores.

It is kind of ludicrous to say..'taking out your $2m PCA bink'...it is one of the biggest poker events on the planet and the guy smashed it - why would anyone ever want to overlook such a tremendous score? I do not know what Galen's ROI is lifetime in live/online MTTs but I do recall that he ran deep in the super high roller at the PCA earlier this year - again showing that he can get the job done in a big event, against a really tough field.

Galen offered a product - the product being his game. He set his retail value extremely high - there is no getting away from that - but no one was forced to buy into this package.

I write this as someone who sells regularly in the marketplace and it feels like more and more people are coming into threads and voicing very strong opinions. Everyone has a right to ask questions, etc, but when it gets to the stage that a seller has their thread basically hijacked, then I think that is unacceptable.

Galen may have a big ego (I have never met him - can only go on what I've seen on TV and he seems like a nice guy, confident sure, but massively egotistical...not convinced by that).

I'm sure the debate will rage on but hopefully OP is able to focus 100% on his game and get some nice scores for his investors.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:08 AM   #104
George Lind III
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

just want to clear up something. i would never sell the 10k hu at 1.3 mu by itself, the whole reason i packaged it that way was to leverage the ev i get from the softer tournaments (mainly the main event) and put it in a package that allows me to play all the 10ks. i even put a stipulation in my thread that if i didn't play the main event that i would reduce the markup on all the other 10ks to 1.15.

also i really hate to get involved in these debates, but to me it just seems like a case of if you think the markup is too high, then just don't buy it, or try to negotiate with the seller. i don't get why people feel the need to crap all over someone's thread when he is being completely upfront about everything and not scamming or being unethical in any way. no one even remotely knows what someone's true roi in a tournament is anyway and no one ever will.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:13 PM   #105
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

Galen, I'm not a potential buyer, but would you mind posting your game breakdown that you mentioned you were PM'ing to a couple of potential investors? I am intrigued by it, and I think it might add something to this thread (which is quickly declining) and help others see your point of view a little better.

Thanks, and if you don't feel that you can post this information, best of luck still.

Last edited by Rcwillie1; 06-25-2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason: Wordsmithing
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:14 PM   #106
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

There has been some great discussion ITT, I find it funny it has happened after OP raised over $30k of investor's money.

I enjoyed reading and agreed with a lot that Daut had to say, but I disagree with the MP being a seller's market that is being destroyed by bad deals. There is no better form of price discovery than a marketplace and I think the one here functions well. If anything, there could be a sight biased to buyers since the basic structure of this MP doesn't allow for prices to move up (i.e. a package that sells out immediately was probably under priced) and prices can only move lower. If something is priced too high, it does not sell and the price comes down - that seems to work for me.

You also saw a lot of big investors / capital leave the market this WSOP. The response was fewer packages getting sold and other being sold at a lower price. Another example of how this and most free markets adjust by themselves.

Daut-Reserve me a copy of the book-I'm sure it will be good reading.
OP-Sorry to further completely derail your legit staking thread. GL rest of WSOP 2012
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:58 PM   #107
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

The marketplace would be a lot better if it worked like somehting similar to an auction or stock market. This is how i think it should go. If u want so sell a package u post the package and allow people to bid on it. For example say someone is selling 50% of a package and max Katz comes in and says "all" well he has to put the markup he wants to buy it at, lets say he says 1.1. Now instead of the selling being over someone can come in and say give me x% where x < 50 at a markup greater than 1.1. Now max will have 50 -x % of the player and this can go on and on with people bidding higher and higher markups until the OP decides to close the bidding.

You can also bid lower markups if OP doesnt have 50% sold yet. say someone comes in and buys 40% at 1.1 u can put in a bid for no markup or .9 markup. The OP can place a minumum bid as well, so someone cant come in at offer at .5 or something.

IMO this will lead to a much fairer marketplace where the price will be judged by the market and not by the player. The way it is now a great player can put in a ridic high markup because there is so many people who will buy it anyways. Also people can't just come in and say reserve all and lock u out of a great investment opportunity. If they come in and buy it all u can still outbid them.

People don't have to do it this way if they don't want , it can be person specific . You can either choose your markup or tell people to bid on it its rly simple. The only drawback to this way is that maybe there can be some kind of market manipulation or something. I can't rly think of an effective tactic to do it but there might be some ways to do it idk.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:08 PM   #108
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

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Old 06-25-2012, 02:20 PM   #109
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

I'm new here, so maybe I'm way off, but I have taken 2 econ classes in the past year lol.

All this unethical talk is absurd to me. It's a marketplace, as long as your not scamming people, you're ok in my book. Everybody has their own best interests at heart.

Suppose somebody prices their package way too low. As an investor, would it be unethical to not tell them and instead snap buy up as much as you can afford? There is no law that says player and investor need to split potential profits in a certain % breakdown. If degens/novice buyers/whomever wanna invest at a high price, players can and probably should sell at a high price. It's bad for the smarter buyers obviously, which is probably why some of them are here complaining. Will it destroy the marketplace? I seriously doubt it.

Another thought: This is like the debate about selling to the one drop at a markup. Some people believe if the player cannot buyin without selling action, then it should be a buyers market, and the seller should not mark it up. This is an absurd notion to me. If there is enough interest at markup, (the buyer is not reliant upon a very few buyers) obv he is able to, and likely should sell at a markup. It's basic supply and demand. Just because buyers want, or think it should be a buyers market, does not mean it is or will be.

Don't agree with Daut in this thread, but I sure would love to read his book. Hurry up and finish/release that ****.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:07 PM   #110
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

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i havent really seen anyone say #3. i think everyone (or maybe its just me) repeatedly says that #3 is not the case. perhaps some of the language i used implied it like "hustled" but it wasnt meant to imply anything sinister about you. we think very highly of your morals and know you are not doing anything sketchy here. i understand you are being consistent in your beliefs about markup and you have paid high markups and are selling what you think are profitable overall buys to others.


#4 you are just proving our point. people who believe that ROIs are super high and are willing to pay very high numbers like yourself and the people who bought from you are pushing the marketplace action to the point where guys like me dont want to step in and buy action so we dont. you have bought way more here because i buy from other places where I get reasonable numbers. the reason we arent buying here is because of the rates given being too high. And i think its going to be bad long term for everyone when variance starts playing out more.

but what do you mean by "players should be able to short others packages"?



as for the ROIs....i do agree that robot players are the worst in tournaments. I would rather have a guy like that at my table than a tough/unpredictable semi fish who wont let me get away with anything easily.

But when it comes to the 10k 6max, those guys mostly arent in the tourney. When i say the 250 good tourney regs, (I REALLY HATE TO NAME NAMES) but im talking about guys like barry greenstein, phil hellmuth, erik cajelais, negreanu, myself, etc etc. these are really really good ****ing poker players. they just arent in the 80 toughest players in an extremely tough field. most of them are in the 5% ROI range (which is no shame at all in one of the toughest tourneys of the year with probably 100 of the 120 best players in the world), some are slightly negative, and the robotic bad ones are probably in the -20 to -30% range. but overall as a group those 250 guys probably have on average a -10% roi i think.

theres just a very limited amount of buyins to go around in a tournament. I do think you might be right about the tippity top players having a higher ROI and that approaching an unbounded area compared to the rest. for example its possible people like sauce/ike/jungleman/isildur have 100% ROIs just because they are that nasty at NL and maybe ivey as well due to his presence. the problem is though when you start taking out 10 buyins there for those 5 guys, now the other 395 guys only have 374 buyins left making the collective ROI even more negative than it was. thats less buyins for everone else who are also beast players. that makes it very tough for the #10 player to now have above a 50% ROI anymore. as well as the other 65 players i listed (along with beasts i forgot like smokey, jason somerville, allen bari, arbianight, jared bleznick, etc etc)


in a much larger fielded tournament i think you are absolutely right about ROI though. Specifically in the main event. I would imagine the robotic grinders only have a 0-20% ROI there even with all the dead money, but there are more great players who have astronomical ROI as you said. I wouldnt be at all surprised if you and others had a 400%+ ROI in the main event. However, I dont think this is the case in almost any other tournament due to the structures being too fast or the fields being overall too tough. ESPECIALLY not the 10k 6max.

i only picked out the 10k 6max because it was by far the easiest to dissect. I could probably go through others and list what I think realistic ROIs are for those but it would take a bit more work and the numbers would be less accurate. But i think my thoughts on the 10k 6max are near spot on.
Dont think its fair to say the amount of players u think have a -roi in the 10k 6m and i think its more unfair to state what u think their ROI is -40% roi. Unless you say there is a wide margin of error which your not. You basically have given yourself no margin of error and are acting super confident in your numbers. The sample size of tourneys like this is so small. If u r using other tourneys that r v different to make predictions on this tourney, I question whether you are using proper controls when doing so if any.

I'm not asking you to give a breakdown of how you calculated everything just asking whether you actually considered these things because the confidence with which your speaking with just seems unjustifiable given the lack of information we have. Have u done a lot of work on this or just put in a few hours and going by feel?

Also i'm not trying to be sarcastic or a prick or anything. hope it doesnt come off that way.

edit i meant the sample size relative to the variance is v small.
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:40 PM   #111
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

I think these questions some up what I mean better. What do you think the margin of error is in the measurements ( or predictions or statements whatver u wanna call it) u made?If you cannot quantify the margin for error what does that say about the accuracy of your measurements? What do u think a measurement is worth without knowing the margin of error?
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:44 PM   #112
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

lol calling this package predatory - how about the buyers take responsibility in having half a brain to figure out if this is a good investment or not, otherwise they shouldn't invest....its annoying seeing people come into MP threads and publicly list their opinion(usually negative) - as long as the OP isn't hiding any information from perspective investors, its fine.....this is how the real world works - people shouldn't come and give negative opinions about MP threads and the mods should really make sure of that
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:49 PM   #113
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

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Originally Posted by GoldenBears View Post
I arrive on June 9th

I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CANCEL REMAINING ACTION AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON (i.e. if I win ~100k or my horses are breaking even or winning halfway through the series, and I'm reasonably assured of not freerolling myself on taxes. Please understand that this is a very real possibility)

oh my goodness gracious...i just can't believe ppl don't see obvious stuff...OP can sell his services for whatever the hell he wants to...what i fail to understand is how ppl can't see that if he can opt out whenever he's ahead or even, that puts a cap on the amt of money that can be won and makes this package way -ev...the markup is atronomical if he can opt out whenever he's ahead

i mean seriously i wanted to mention this pretty early thinking that the marketplace is the marketplace and if all the information is on the table then who cares whether people buy bad deals, but more and more often I see ridiculously bad deals selling out, it seems people actually do need babysitting
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:58 PM   #114
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

First off, sorry to Galen for having your thread hijacked. You have articulately answered every question and clearly stated your position. Whether this is a good deal/that is your true ROI/your edge in these fields makes no difference in this thread's legitimacy as a selling offer. You have the right to sell at whatever price you want and it's up to the buyers to decide. Saying this is unethical is completely ridiculous(as someone said it's unethical for buyers to accept great deals without saying anything then), at absolute worst this is a poor buy with negative expectation.

I don't understand how people have concluded that this is bad for the marketplace or bad for the staking business.

1. Markets correct themselves, if people are not willing to pay Galen's prices then he won't sell and will adapt if he wishes to do so.

2. How is this bad for the staking business in the long run? First of all, half of this is an entertainment business that doesn't seem to be taken into account. While you may be turned off at the money making opportunity presented by this particular poker player, other people clearly want this service. It's not hard to picture Ivey selling out at something absurd like 3x markup, even if people know it's not a great deal. Someone may want to sponsor the player on name and brand alone with no concern as to how the tournament goes(Phil Hellmuth for instance).

3. If this is not a deal you would accept as an investor, you can negotiate or not buy. Galen has clearly shown he is not negotiating his prices so I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish. Yes it sucks you don't get pieces of good players since other people will pay through the roof for them, but that aspect will correct itself if buyers are only concerned about making money(which is not always true IMO).
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Old 06-25-2012, 03:58 PM   #115
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

I find it funny how there are so many people itt talking about how things like this are "bad for marketplace" , and they collectively have probably posted to BAP here <50 (being generous). I am sure some of them buy pieces of people, have horses etc. using other means, but has anyone questioned their motivation for coming in here to derail?

Furthermore, as an investor myself, I think this is absolutely getting out of control while the package is going on. (although I think Galen is more than able to compartmentalize, and still play great). I just think its rude.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:30 PM   #116
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

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I find it funny how there are so many people itt talking about how things like this are "bad for marketplace" , and they collectively have probably posted to BAP here <50 (being generous).
What's funny about this, though? Most of the guys who are really good at assessing and investing in packages agree that the good buys in the marketplace are few and far between, so it shouldn't be surprising that many posters in this thread don't invest often. Just because their marketplace participation is low doesn't mean their statements hold less water.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:37 PM   #117
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

mike, I like you a lot and loved buying your packages coz you were fun to sweat but being able to opt out should not be allowed...you should be smart enough to see that putting a cap on the value of the package makes it -ev...i mean this should be simple logic...i think OP's ROI is extremely high for any event he wishes to register for, and I might even take a slightly -ev piece because the prizepool is so high it's worth gambling, but if he can opt out of the package at his own discretion when he's "breakeven or ahead", then this is a losing buy no matter what his ROI is...I thought I agreed with AmazingErvin that this stuff will be weeded out organically by the marketplace, but even smart guys like you miss the obvious
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:16 PM   #118
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

Low volume with no real variance in live mtts
Galen!! How do ya do it!. Now just write a book capitalize on your current
Run good. Rest will be history including this thread


BTW Galen ur markup is whatever the buyers will pay
I seriously don't think he should have to explain his self at all guys, pm system
Seems to be working fine pm him if you have a problem...blowing up his thread isn't really ness
As Mikey said most who complain probably never buy action to began with, @cboarders bad buys are.out there but bad buys can turn into a good buy a simple pm request lower markup or negotiate a deal. Many investors should think out side the box, I like aaaaaa idea of bidding seems like it would be a great idea.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:33 PM   #119
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

Just curious, any results from the first portion of the package?? The thread was an entertaining read, but I haven't heard Galen's name correlated to any deep runs this Summer, but I may have just missed it.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:24 PM   #120
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

i wont post in this specific thread any more. dont want to derail galen or his attentions while hes playing big tourneys. i originally felt it was ok to post in here since the package has already been sold and started, but still probably not appropriate.

if a mod takes mine+other relevant posts from here and puts them into a new topic id be glad to answer in that one. but wont go off on any more tangents here.

GL rest of the way galen
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:34 PM   #121
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

Whats the difference between pricing a house or car too high, in the hopes of catching a bite and what OP did? Some of OP's posts in this thread remind me of Deldar's thread where he seems to suggest he is above variance...

Seems likely OP charged too high of a mark up, but for two reasons I believe he should be given a break this time:

-Hes been running incredibly good in recent times, and probably over rates his own game in his mind and the softness of the fields. Almost all players think they are better then they are, furthermore almost all players think they run worse then they do, this leads to inflated mark ups.

-People bought the action, 'Buy at what you can sell at' (selling house analogy) if buyers think there is value in this package, good luck to them.
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:37 PM   #122
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBears View Post
1k on 6/10:

Late regged about an hour in, had an absurdly soft table. Ran 3k up to 18k or so, then had to get it in a couple spots and lost, then ran it back up then ran AKs in to AA. Had a good time, played pretty spewy to run it up big or bust to play TD and did the latter.
I like the honesty, but this is simply what you do not want to hear when you are paying 1.62 mark up
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:41 PM   #123
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

goldenbears,

would you like to press on the 10k 6-max?

ill sell you at 1.45 for up to 300%
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:17 PM   #124
dandinkens
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

this is open to anyone reputable that wants to book galen btw, but he gets first option
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:28 PM   #125
deke971
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Re: GALEN HALL 2012 SUMMER SELLING

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBears
I arrive on June 9th

Quote:
I RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CANCEL REMAINING ACTION AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON (i.e. if I win ~100k or my horses are breaking even or winning halfway through the series, and I'm reasonably assured of not freerolling myself on taxes. Please understand that this is a very real possibility)
Quote:

oh my goodness gracious...i just can't believe ppl don't see obvious stuff...OP can sell his services for whatever the hell he wants to...what i fail to understand is how ppl can't see that if he can opt out whenever he's ahead or even, that puts a cap on the amt of money that can be won and makes this package way -ev...the markup is atronomical if he can opt out whenever he's ahead

i mean seriously i wanted to mention this pretty early thinking that the marketplace is the marketplace and if all the information is on the table then who cares whether people buy bad deals, but more and more often I see ridiculously bad deals selling out, it seems people actually do need babysitting
+1

I think the opt out clause should be more of a deal-breaker than the mu imo
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