+1 from another interested Canadian.

I remember seeing an article at one point about the specific forms that *Americans* fill out to indicate beneficial ownership of the shares (and I'm damned if I can remember the form number for search), but not a specific tax FAQ for best procedures. Maybe after the tax deadline tomorrow and the accountants take a week to decompress ...

i am curious as to peoples thoughts on money that has been shipped to players for bap's, which is still in player accounts and in limbo

Perhaps read the thread at the top of this forum with 100+ posts

Okay, as a Canadian trying to sell BAPs into American tournaments, my tax situation sucks rotten eggs. So, I'm trying to decide on how to set the line on the tax share between investor and seller.

Hypothetical: Let's say for argument's sake I'm trying to sell a $10k package and I'm selling 50% to a single investor.

Any amount won up to the size of the package should be split 50/50. (i.e. if I win $8k, it should be an even 4k split because there should be no IRS tax on it.) That's just fair, no tax means no share of tax obligations!

Where the seller can get screwed is in profits above the size of the package that can be withheld by the IRS! If the seller is responsible for all taxes, and pays out in after-tax profits, the buyer pays an effective 30% tax rate. (35% investor/35% seller/30% IRS, or 35/35/30 for shorthand). If the seller pays in before-tax profits, the buyer pays no tax (50/20/30), it's a great deal for the buyer and horrible for the seller. Especially if the seller goes on to win the Main Event (for example).

So, where's the right level of pain for the seller and the buyer to take on?

Let's say you would invest in an American with "good" online stats at 1.3 MU. If you could invest in a Canadian with the same stats, and NO markup, what effective tax rate would you be willing to pay before you say "the tax is too damn high, pass"? (45/25/30) - 10% effective tax rate? (40/30/30) - 20% effective tax rate?

I think my line would be 40/30/30 (with *zero* markup), but I'm curious about what you think.

Thanks, in advance.

Can't Canadians just claim the taxed winnings back, like these sites adversite?

http://www.rmsexperience.com/faq
http://www.casinotaxrebate.com/faq.html

I'm not sure if that works, just asking.
But If this is possible, you'd pay the sellers 100% before-taxes, and then you'd be responsible for claiming the taxes back to yourself.

Marcos, of course I can get the tax back on *provable* losses. The sites advertise that you can generally get everything back because the majority of "jackpot winners" are slot degenerates who donate tens of thousands to the casino every year and occasionally bink big wins which are unfairly taxed. If you have a net loss on your gambling activities over the year, you get everything back.

Poker players, without degenerate pit/slot habits, are different beasts entirely.

That's why I was arguing that at everything *up to the cost of the package*, of course, the investor should get his share back ... there's no net tax to be taken care of. (And if you are paying net tax outside of the package, then it's not from activities arising from the specific deal, and you shouldn't be charging your buyers for it!) The issue is once you start to make a net profit in the United States, the Canadian takes a 30% tax hit on every dollar (assuming the money is taxable ... at the WSOP/Venetian, wins of over $5k+entry fee have 30% of the net win withheld for taxes). I paid nearly $100K to the IRS when I came runner-up in an event in 2008, only $4000 of which was recoverable.

If a Canadian is selling pieces for the summer of tournaments in Vegas, who should be paying that? Seller paying that makes it a really bad deal for Canadians if they bink a huge win. (That's my 50/20/30 scenario ... 30% IRS, 50% investor, and 20% back to the seller.) If the buyer and seller both pay equally (35/35/30), the package is dramatically less interesting to investors who live in treaty countries and pay zero tax generally.

That's why I was asking about how Canadians can handle taxes twice in two other threads and got no responses. Due to lack of any response on the issue, I *assume* it's not possible for Canadians to offer the share documentation to the payout clerks in the same way that Americans do. (In spite of what the WSOP says on the topic, I understand they are legally required to accept the documentation and deal with it if you're from the US.)

When the IRS becomes an investor in your profit, who should pay? Clearly, a really good tournament player should be able to share that risk on to the buyers and get a deal, in the same way that a good player can ask for markup.

I hope that clears up what I'm asking about. And thanks for your response!

SlightlyMad,
I Understand.

I asked a similar question to yours (regarding the separate forms for investors when you aren't a US citizen) in the legislation forum, check it out:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...aking-1001920/

Just wanted to say thanks to DoGGz for the great spreadsheet.


GLA

I don't play online, only live. Can I still post an offer for staking?

As an American, investing cash to buy pieces of people..What's the optimal way to write off the losses if you don't have the tournament receipt?

I would just document everything somewhere. Maybe even ask for receipt if they aren't going to update it online. And then forward all that info to your tax guy.

dunno- why not fire a quick tweet off each break... (ETC, 3 secs)
**** we are playing with other people's (real) money...

I've had a bunch of live backers who didn't want or care about updates until the money. I've had backers who absolutely did not want to read through any hands I played.

I personally tweet chipstacks on break and maybe post a hand or two into my 2p2 rail. I keep a spreadsheet updated with win/loss for those who don't care at all.

last year some horrible stuff happened - some to very good player with some very well known backers

- but lets face it - and the end of the day - if a horse gets drunk and does 20k in the pit - he may regret it (and never get backed again) - but short of waltzing them up to the window - i don't know what to do about that
- and i do have one horse im going to walk up to the window

- basically this community operates on trust, reputation, and more trust (oh and did i say trust)

If a horse would lose 20k in the pit while drunk he wasn't really a good horse to begin with.

= understatement of the thread...

- this actually happened last year (may have been drunk or just gambling tilted/ stuck) - same effect

My biggest mistakes have been hard luck stories - where I combine sympathy with investment (and emphasize the former)

and even a great player with no updates, no accurate record keeping is a pain in the ass because of extra work

I'm new to the MP and I want to thank everyone for sharing their thoughts/feelings/past experiences. As soon as I can post I"ll be making a small package for Pendleton Roundup in Oregon then after I play and post my results for that series I am planning to put together a package for VDSE and small WSOP events. I gather from this thread constant updating and communication is key especially from someone who is putting together their first package or packages like me. Depending on how that goes I am also considering putting together a ME package.

What is the final consensus for the best way to prove that the event was played, starting stack with your receipt on the felt?

I've noticed in posts the amount of money held for taxes if the backer does not provide a w-9 seems to vary. Some posters will say 25% withheld if tax information is not given and others up to 30%. What should the standard be?

I don't want to bog down this thread with personal questions but if anyone wants to PM me to help me on these last few questions I'd certainly appreciate it.

OPR fulltilt sn: Iamanooblet
Sharkscope: Iamanooblet FT

I have a w-9 from last year when a friend put me in about 5 3oclock rios and I cashed 3rd for 8k but that is the extent of my live receipts. Wizard-50 was backing me and will provide a reference as he has backed me the last few years in some small buy in tournaments with always positive results.

Based on my results above should I put together a small package of VSDE and only include $600< I was thinking about throwing in some WSOP $1500's.

Does it make sense for me to make a ME package or am I too new and not enough history to be posting one online? If I make a ME package I don't want to freeroll it as that seems not the right thing to do but I would only want to take a small percentage of myself, should I just not bother and maybe try to satellite in on my own money?

Any constructive input would be well received as my long term backer has had a change in his financial situation and I am saving for a house. This thread has been a good start of what to do/not to do. I appreciate all posters in helping me understand this process.

Hello, I am quite new about forums and stacking. My nick on ps is HK_LUX_HK.

Since you all have much more experience than me in buying and selling I would like to ask you all to check my stats and give me a feedback if they are good enough to obtain any stacking.

It is probably too late for this year but anyway I am going to play at least the event #47

Thanks for your time

I've been staked online for cash many times, can many solid give references, but never for tournaments. Successful SSNL player (xxUHav2DepositAgainLOLxx) ***take out the xx's*** on Merge 100NL - 400NL over 250k+ hands. I'm sure I still have an edge over the field at the WSOP even though I lack a ton of tourney experience. Do you think there would be any interest if I were to post shares? Going to play in either or both of the WSOP Event #19 June 9th $1500 and June 10th Event #21 $1,000 NLHE. Just looking to sell about 25% - 50% of each BI for even value.

As someone who does not need to pay tax in his country for WSOP winnings, I still have not figured out if I will actually need to pay tax if a horse from the US cashes. Has anyone gone through that before?

Cheers

No you don't

A US tax professional that specializes in professional gambling provided some good answers in a thread I posted last week:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...eeded-1206401/