This will likely be my last long post in this thread as I believe very strongly in what I've said and I don't intend on compromising in this matter. If that means some of you will elect not to trust me in the future, so be it. I typically insta-ship shares anyway so I don't think it will be an issue. I'm going to address the most important posts I've seen in this thread below...

I want to start with this post from JackOfSpeed. I unfortunately have to agree. I certainly breached staking etiquette by A) not letting share 'reservations' hold the importance that some of you think they should and B) not being more diligent in my communications with stanski before the event. I have never debated this fact. But a disregard to staking etiquette doesn't make my reservation any more of a booked share in my opinion.

I agree that this was mishandled by both of us however obviously don't agree with paying.

So let me get this straight. Someone comes in your thread (we'll say for arguments sake that I'm a reputable poster) a week and a half or so before the event and says reserve me 2% if I can pay in vegas. You say ok sounds good we'll meet up when I'm there. You then don't hear from him for over a week and even try PM'ing him and receive no response.

You now have two choices:
1. Assume that his lack of communication means his share reservations are no longer valid and that you are not going to be paid for your shares, cover your own ass and cancel the reservation and sell them to someone else.

or.

2. Assume that his lack of communication means the 2% is booked and that he will pay you and you should pay him in the event of a cash even though the last time you heard from him was over a week ago and he hasn't given you a cent.

This choice seems obvious to me If I was the one selling but maybe I'm just more cynical than you guys?

First of all I want to reconstruct your timing a little. 7pm for me is eastern, so only 4 in vegas fwiw. Not that any of this matters. The only inconsistency in my story is that I thought I had given him my number. I didn't. This doesn't change whether or not in my mind the shares were booked (they weren't).

Oh yeah, sorry I forgot to respond to this one in my last post.

To answer the bolded point I just want to confirm something on your thinking. If I ask a seller to reserve shares for me and then he sends me a PM saying Thanks for Investing in me (I assume this is sent to anybody showing interest ITT and does not AT ALL state that I've personally booked action) all of a sudden my shares are booked? If he changes my (res) to (paying in vegas) all of a sudden that means I've agreed to a mutual booking of the share? I couldn't disagree more in this matter. What terminology the OP uses in marking my unpaid reservation doesn't change anything in my mind. He never contacted me and said is your share booked, should I mark it as such? or ANYTHING of the sort. I'm not debating that OP didn't think the share was booked but that really is irrelevant to my argument. I didn't think it was and both parties obviously have to consider the action booked in order for a sale to take place.

Well, the problem was there was no way i could really tell you your shares were cancelled while also giving you enough time to respond to my message. I really wanted to give you time to respond, and just assumed "no big deal, its just day one and i will see him at some point tomorrow he's probably sleeping." Like when you dont inform me you have left vegas, i just auto assume you are going to be at the rio the next day because, you know, every poker player in the world that is staking people and says they will pay in person is there and its completely standard and was done by other people. Apparently their standards don't apply to you though.

Why have you not responded to the fact that other posters in PLO UFO's thread who also reserved paid up even though he had them listed as reserved (not even as paid in vegas)? You are insinuating that all of these people are being angled by PLO UFO by not paying, you are 100% calling him an angle shooter. Why have investors paid their shares to him that were reserved and you haven't and you feel that is ok?

It really isn't my fault if you assumed that the reason I hadn't answered in over a week was because I was sleeping and that you would see me at some point. As someone accepting shares this is just a terrible way to do business and you set yourself up to get screwed by making assumptions like this. In the future I'd really urge you to NOT make assumptions like that as they're typically going to be incorrect and put you into terrible spots (like this one).

I haven't responded to this because I have not even looked at PLO UFO's thread and the FIRST time he contacted me about paying him was today. If people are considering this thread "close" then his thread is not even a little bit close in the fact that I don't owe him a penny. So sorry if I'm ignoring that matter. As for the supposed (I have not read this not calling you a liar just don't care to look it up) people who are paying their "reservations" AFTER the tournament, they clearly have a different understanding then I do of share reservation and booking. I don't know why people have that view nor do I agree with it. I never called anyone an angle shooter. Don't put words in my mouth. I simply said that I am clearly not one.

Going to bed, wasted enough time on this thread for one day. If some of you choose not to trust me in the future and feel that I was angling in this thread, I'm sorry you feel that way and I can assure you that was not my intention. As I stated before I am very very confident that what I'm saying is right and it is very unlikely that any discussion will change my opinion in this matter. It's just a black and white thing for the way I see how booked shares are handled.

ok I see that there are timezone differences. so nine busted at ~330pst/630 est. posted rightaway on twitter and itt around 408/708 est and msauce's text to the wrong # was sent at 704pm. Its pretty close.

And good to see msauce agreeing that 'the only inconsistency' is he incorrectly assumed he'd given his #. if he expects 'seller's responsibility' to contact him, when nine doesn't have msauce's # and msauce is not responding to pms, how can 'seller's responsibility' to contact him be used. it is a pretty big inconsistency tho

oh well I had to make my observations about what I saw was goin on. you guys can carry on.

Well then I am confused. Isn't the reason you are refusing to pay b/c you have to protect yourself in spots like this against being freerolled, yet you can admit that it's very likely OP genuinely believed you were booked? You can't really have it both ways.

From what I am seeing you wanted the action to begin with but payment in Vegas was necessary. OP agreed to this. For some reason or another you two couldn't meet up in Vegas for the actual transfer of the cash. OP played the tournament under the assumption the action was booked. I think that is actually the most reasonable part of it all given your reputation (a good one) and the communication that I've seen. He doesn't cash and tries to be paid for the piece (again, something that happens all the time).

The fact you aren't even willing to work something out in this spot and nearly the same exact thing happened to "plo ufo" is in pretty bad form (to me at least). In investing in players you sometimes just have to go with the spirit of the system we have. It isn't always as cut and dry as "no action until money received". It's pretty clear "plo ufo" would have paid you had he cashed as he had nearly half of his action sold on reserve to who he thought were reputable people. I think the same applies to stanski here in this situation.

This is a time line of your thought process:

"Reserve 2% please."

"I'll meet you in Vegas to give you cash for the share, you can consider the share reserved though cause I'm reputable."

"I have to leave Vegas, let me text him that I can't meet up and don't want a share."

*Dials wrong number when the text has implications of hundreds of dollars*

"Even though he's already registered the event and is playing under the assumption that I'm gonna give him cash for my share, I'm just not gonna pay up at all and leave it at that even though he trusted me cause I'm a reputable person."


You tell me if this is the thought process of a reputable person.

To me, it sounds more like the thought process of a person who accidentally free rolled major equity and is too ashamed to admit it.

It's more sick that 30 people have posted here and TONS will never know this happened.

Lots of fun things to point out.

Uno

The text message is ridic. Why didn't you text him when you left Vegas? You waited 3 days until he'd already played the tournament, busted out, and announced this fact publicly to contact him. (I think some people who are commenting in this thread [and still siding with Monsieur Stanski] don't realize this because of the way you presented your communication history with him.)

You did text him, so you clearly thought there was some need to clarify things. I don't see how you can possibly think that it made any sense to wait until after he'd played the tourney to do so. If you forgot, tough ****. Sometimes I forget **** and it leads to me owing somebody money, so I pay them.

Dos

Your reaction to the "Investors" PM thing is also ridiculous. Your assertion that the PM isn't a clear contract or whatever the hell you're trying to say ignores the obvious point: By sending you that PM, Senior Stanski makes it pretty clear that he thinks you're booked. If you don't think you're booked, you should clarify that ASAP. If you don't clarify it ASAP, you should definitely definitely clarify it when you leave vegas and therefore think that action can't possibly ever be booked.

It's clear that you saw this PM because you PMed Lord Stanski afterwards. You also left it out of your PM history with him, which looks pretty scummy.

Tres

You're also just making up your own rules. First, you were saying that nobody ever takes action from unknowns without requiring payment in advance. Then people tell you you're wrong.

So then you say "Ok... well that's how I do things." That's fine if you tell people you do things that way, but you didn't. Instead, you acted exactly like somebody who buys lots of pieces and is hanging out in Vegas around the time of the main event when he'll be meeting up with a bunch of horses to pay them.

Coupled with points uno and dos in which you learn that Professor Stanski clearly thinks this is what's going on but don't bother to tell him that that's not the case or that you're no longer in Vegas, this makes you look scummy.

Quattro

You keep making the point that Baron Stanski was dumb to assume you had action without actually receiving payment. You're probably right. But the reason you're right is because Herr Stanski set himself up to be scammed by someone who would refuse to pay if he busted. Just because Joseph Q. Stanski III set himself up to not get paid doesn't give you the right to not pay him.

Zima,
You're not helping.

its quatro Noah

also this sucks, because I think stanski was legitimely going to pay out the 2% if he cashed and now has every reason to feel freerolled while Msauce can probably get away with it (not questioning you or your intentions, just the outcomes) and its impossible to say if he did it intentionally or not

I feel like the burden here should be on msauce though, since stanski made a much better job communicating imo

I've deleted a few posts; enough of the insulting/trolling IMO.

I agree with much of this, and I'm really surprised that several of you find this so clear cut.

I actually lean slightly toward MSauce not owing the money, simply because I think that when in doubt, no money no action.

The more important lesson to take out of this thread is that if you don't want misunderstandings to cost you money, communicate better.

lol @ randers being a random... even a rando like me knows he's no random

i was hoping that the antithesis of the bakes thread would play out someday! this is everything i'd hoped for!

Indicative of character imo. How can you accuse stanksi of making poor assumptions and poor business practice when you have done exactly the same. Only difference is stanski was transparent in his business and assumptions and you weren't.

Cant see how anyone in gambling community wouldn't snap pay this. It's the decent thing to do even if you still stand by your quasi reasoning.

I never caught the end of this thread, Just curious, what ended up being the consensus?

I'll try to make this really brief as I have class in 10 minutes...So just quick corrections here and there.

You're forgetting the fact that the ONLY reason I texted him is because he PM'd me over and over again. I was confident in my mind that there was no booking of shares but when he persisted I pay him, thats when I felt the need to contact him. I had absolutely no clue that he had even played his day 1 at this time.


I didnt leave out anything except the aftermath PMs. AKA the one where I PM'd him before posting ITT saying that the shares were never booked and I wasn't intending on paying him. That was the only PM I sent him that I didn't include, I figured that was already spelled out IN this thread and it was sent yesterday...

Tres
Nobody has disagreed that the widely accepted method of taking action on 2p2 involves reservations paying up before the event if they want action. That's the only thing I ever said I adhere to.

If at this point you still really think I was trying to freeroll Hubert M. Stanski Jr. You're dellusional.

+1

So the decent thing to do is just pay to make a problem go away when you don't agree with the reasoning behind it at all? I find this to be a pretty poor indication that I mean any harm or have less of a moral compas than anyone on this forum. In my mind me paying stanski $260 to end this debate is an admission of guilt. I don't believe the shares were properly booked and I don't think paying him is the "decent" thing to do for anyone in my shoes.

and ty for this. I really appreciate it.

Sorry for multiposts I just had a lot to answer.

Working something out between $0 and $260 is the right thing to do and certainly doesn't imply an admission of guilt. You both screwed up, why not meet halfway or close to it?

Not a bad idea IMO. It's an admission by both parties of the only thing I'm sure they're guilty of - poor communication.

But don't take this as any kind of "mod ruling". I don't see anything here egregious enough for us to get involved - I'm just offering up my opinion.

do you guys not think that 100 people do the same thing MSauce did every day in this forum? except in those cases the OP simply drops their reserves? i really think that MSauce paying up here would set a bad precedent...but i'm open to hearing more thoughts on the matter

precedent is 10000000000x worse in the alternative and much more open to abuse.

why is it worse? it can be easily avoided by not holding reserves into the event...

I don't get why people keep saying my communication was poor. I have no means of contacting the guy besides on the forums and private message. I used both methods. I was to "meet him in vegas," which is usually not a problem during the fricking world series of poker because literally every single person is in the rio at some point. How can I just automatically know that he left vegas?

I mean I changed his status from reserved to paying in vegas, sent out an investor private message, private messaged him when i arrived in vegas, gave him my phone number... What more can I do when i assume its a reputable individual (his unwillingness to compromise from the very start of this **** fest definitely turned me off to this image, he said right from the very first conversation that no matter what anyone said i wouldn't get a dime, this is why i pretty much gave up on it because i realized he was not an individual who thinks anything similar to 95% of the poker world)? I mean obviously now in the future i'm going to do a fricking pay 5 days before or your shares are lost thing, but like seriously when someone says they are going to be in vegas, doesn't respond to private messages, doesn't respond to me changing them from "reserved" to "paying in vegas," I mean its just amazing to me that everyone can just sit here and say "yea you guys both suck at communicating." Um, he was the only one who literally said nothing at all. He never unreserved his shares, he said NOTHING AT ALL.

Also, its not the fricking $260 that pisses me off, it is the fact that he has just been so unwilling to change his viewpoint. I wanted to just end this right away because i knew this dude would never change his viewpoint, and i absolutely despise people are so ****ing stupid and stubborn to not listen to anyone or change their viewpoint no matter what. The anger this has caused me feels like he owes me like a mid 4 figure sum because i usually never get this angry over ****, except for the fact that i 100% know he owed me from the start and just refuses to ever change his viewpoint on this.

I hate that people keep saying i "Reserved his shares." I didn't reserve anything, i specifically said he was PAYING ME IN VEGAS for a share that he had already purchased. There was nothing "Reserved" about this, because if they were "reserved" obviously i wouldn't be ****ing 100% sure he owed me the money from the start.