the swap is all his unless discussed beforehand, I don't even see how this could be a question. It is pretty shady to trade 4% of yourself when you only have 15% but I have traded %s many, many times while being backed and have never once told the backer or expected him to have any of that action. I have actually traded 5% while over 25k in makeup and had to pay $1250 out of my pocket on a 25k score even though I never cleared makeup, the worst 25k score of my life.

TBH I've never even considered the possibility that the backer would have the %, unless it is discussed ahead of time I don't see how it is close.

Lets put this into perspective: the horse needed a loan from jkidd just to pay his expenses to get to Vegas, yet we're expected to believe that if he had been the one who cashed and it was for less than his makeup, then he would've just happily paid his swap out of pocket? You really don't think he wouldn't have tried to convince jkidd that the swap goes to makeup? Really?

Using the "can't have your cake and eat it too" theory, I think the swap is part of the stake and jkidd by accepting makeup for his investment is entitled to his % of what the other guy cashed for. Doesn't appear he'll ever get it -- even if everyone had agreed with jkidd -- but that is my 2 cents.

Fwiw when I was backed by Dipthrong (who at the time was probably the 2nd biggest online mtt backer) he told me his policy was that all swaps were included in the stake. I would have to imagine it was to avoid situations like this.

I can't really believe how many people are mis-interpreting this situation, the horse does NOT have 15% of himself. He is playing a on a 50/50 backing deal where the backer is paying for 30% of the buy-ins and investors bought up the other 70% AND he is in makeup. This means the backer has rights to 30% of any score assuming that 0.3 * X < MU (X = Gross cash). The horse never had 4% of himself to offer as a swap unless he paid out of pocket and given the circumstances stated it seems unlikely he would have planned to do so.

Edit: I'm not sure what exactly should happen at this point but in the future you should make a stipulation that a horse in makeup that does not have an explicit percentage of himself is not allowed to make any swaps

You are misinterpreting it. You even say that given the circumstances it seems unlikely that he would have paid out of his pocket but that has nothing to do with the backer, it has to do with the horse and the guy he traded 4% with. If the guy he traded with knew he was in makeup(they were living together so most likely he did) then it is on him to make sure the guy pays even if he doesn't clear makeup.

Mkind, you said Dip had a stipulation when you played for him. I've played for a couple of big backers and this was never brought up and I traded many times and never mentioned it to a backer. It seems that many more shady things can happen if all swaps are included unless they are all told ahead of time which seems pretty hard to do if you are trading a lot. The horse could win $100k and say "oh I traded 5% with so and so" and then make an extra $2500 for themselves.

If the horse had a big stack early then told his backer that he traded 4% with someone that was already out I doubt the backer would be perfectly fine with giving up 4% of the overall profits when he wasn't told before the tourney that there was a trade.

I don't know either party so I won't comment after this.

The problem with this is we don't know the other side of it, we don't even know if the party he swapped with was aware of how their deal worked.

My point that he didn't have 4% of himself to swap still stands.

Hi,

I'm one the guys sharing the house with the horse in question.

We just woke up and saw this thread he is writing a response now.

From my point of view OP's post is misleading and the horse will clear that up.

What a mess

If jkid doesn't have action of the swap (which I'm not sure I agree with considering jkid put up 30% of the BI's and investors the other 70%) Horse should clear out his MU in full right now (15K) since he voided the contract and quit while in MU. Hope you guys come to a mutual agreement on this.

I have been blown off by him for over a week now. I've been civil throughout and have pretty much pleaded with him repeatedly to meet up with me and put together a single post that told both sides. Ask him to see his text messages and you won't feel so bad. I'm more than fine with him coming in here to defend himself and let people know who he is.

Hi guys,

I am the person OP is referring to. I wanted to come in here and clear a few things up as many things in the OP's debate are wrong from my perspective and even though this issue is clear cut I have to give my side of the story as a lot of information in the OP is missing or is wrong.

Firstly, OP was not backing me in everything as he states, he was backing my NL MTT on Pokerstars and Full Tilt. I play on many European sites as well and my main game is not NL MTT. After Black Friday OP could not send me funds so I have been ownrolling all my action since the begining of May. He was actually backing that part of my action for around 9 months and not 18 as he is stating. After BF he even told me I could find someone else to back that action. The aim logs are below:

jkidd10084 (20:47:38): hey i wasnt able to get any money so you can list it
jkidd10084 (20:47:44): and try to play under some other people

When he says he explained the situation as being identical to our online deal with makeup this is what he said and you can make up your minds what he meant and what would even be reasonable with this offer:

3rd may
jkidd10084 (09:15:40): do you have any interest in coming out for the series?
J I (09:16:01): not financially man..i thought about it
jkidd10084 (09:16:03): you would have a massive edge in them
J I (09:16:21): i need to get money from horses and profit a bit before...i am so tight
jkidd10084 (09:16:22): could mark it up and sell part to (investor)
jkidd10084 (09:16:24): and ill cover the rest
jkidd10084 (09:16:30): alright
J I (09:16:30): umm
jkidd10084 (09:16:49): you would just have to cover expenses
J I (09:16:52): is (investor) still buying evrything?
jkidd10084 (09:16:57): yea
J I (09:17:10): and we need to put like 10% or something?
jkidd10084 (09:17:19): depends
jkidd10084 (09:17:47): i could put up like 15% or something
jkidd10084 (09:17:53): and you would get to freeroll 15%
jkidd10084 (09:17:58): of like 15 mtt
jkidd10084 (09:18:05): maybe 20
jkidd10084 (09:18:14): main event and everything
jkidd10084 (09:18:23): you would have a very big edge in tehse fields
J I (09:18:51): yea sounds good obv but i ll need a couple more weeks to see how it all goes with horses my games etc...
jkidd10084 (09:18:56): your expectation would probably be a solid +50k
jkidd10084 (09:19:04): so 15% of that.. you would expect to win 7.5k id say


jkidd10084 (19:25:37): offer 70%
jkidd10084 (19:25:54): and we split 15


Furthermore, he only had to put 11.6% to cover the remaining buy-ins. I sold my action at markup so I am getting that equity at least. I was putting a large sum to cover expenses as I flew here from Europe for the series and in the end the sum I put into this trip is a lot more than what OP had to put in. Why would I ever fly out here to grind online make-up if this deal was like OP states it to be? It doesn't make sence.
He knew I was not 100% on going to vegas so he offered to pay a "small" part of the expenses as well, which we agreed I would be paying back if I was in profit. I even told him he could have a total of 15% when he only put up 11.6% (with no mark up), since he was putting up a part of the expenses. To make it clearer the ammount he had to put for buy-ins+expenses equates to 15% worth of the package so we agreed he could have that at "no markup".

It's clear we both have 15%. We never spoke nor agreed about swaps. I am entitled to do what I please with my percentage. I have been swapping with other players as well during the series and had to pay money for a cash and the OP never knew about it. I never agreed with him that he was beneficial or liable with any of my swaps. I never swapped more than 6.5% of my action and would not swap more so OP's argument if I was swapping more than 15% is irrelevant. If I would of binked I would of payed out of my end, which is a standard procedure for swapping. Now if I would have won, would the OP really want to dish out his cut to a swap he has no idea about? A % that I told him I had in a player when I randomly saw him during that mtt? He didn't even know it was a swap and he asked me the following day whether I bought that % or whether it was swap. I told him it was a swap. Why would I tell him so if I was trying to screw him?

In reference to OP's stance on 'me dropping myself' I would like to elaborate on the details. OP had sent me a text after asking me whether the % I had was a swap or whether I bought it, indicating that he had the whole 30% of the action and that we should split the swap. He even offered to not take into consideration our "online" makeup and just slpit the 4%, this shows he was trying to extract as much as possible. After I read this and dicussed it with many friends, players and backers, and explaining to him that he was clearly wrong through countless messages back and fourth via text, I realized I could not do business with this type of person. I never told him to F off though and I was very polite with all the conversations we had, both by text and in person. I just stopped responding after I made it clear that I was unselling the remaining of my package to him.

To further show I had good intentions with the OP throughout our relationship, I have to mention that I had him buy 30% of a package of my friend who won the event but this event was not included in that package. OP was not happy about it and he made it clear through another AIM convo we had, that he believed that he should have a right to buy all of my friend's action if he decided to play more events. I explained to him that he was wrong but I tried to talk my friend to give him a small freerol in that event as he was very unlucky that this was one of the tournaments he did not have action in and he bricked all the previous ones, so my friend gave him a freeroll of 1% in this win, which he clearly did not have to. He did it because of me. After the whole saga even my friend wanted to unsell the action he sold to him as he was treating our business the worst way possible, which he did.

I have exchanged lots of money with the OP in the past and trust has never been an issue or with anyone else I have dealt with, therefore I don't understand why he thinks I would try to screw him in this. IMO OP is stuck as he clearly said to me a couple of weeks back and this is an attempt from him to angle shoot his way into more money.

This is a long post and even though I could write more things, I think the situation is clear cut.

Just skimmed through a bunch mostly wrong answers. As a horse you can't really swap in the true spirit of a swap when in makeup because you likely never see any of it the swap $$ just goes to makeup. all of the 4% goes to makeup until it's cleared then it's split 50/50

Wait, so you actually did have 15% of your action going straight to you? The OP makes it sound like the entire 30% was part of your makeup deal, if you had 15% of your action outright then of course the swap is yours.

Edit: Need clarification on details of the deal before any viable opinions can be made.

Firstly. I am not capable of sending money online because of black friday. I'm American, he is not. He had very little money online, so he was ownrolling for a few days. He final tabled a SCOOP event for something like 10k. After this, I told him if he is willing to lend me the online money to play on, I would reimburse him in Vegas. Our backing deal never ended. He played under me up until his trip out here.

Secondly, he did not unsell his main event action based on my personality or inability to handle financial situations. He won $550,000 and wanted to have a larger percentage of himself in the softest yearly tournament. I understood this and was nice enough to comply. He came to me and asked me nicely if it would be possibly to unbook for that very reason. To say that he has no respect for me and didn't want to do business with me is completely out of line and incorrect.

Lastly, I have a very good reputation in the poker community. I can have multiple very well respected people come in here and vouch that I would never angle shoot anyone or steal a dime in absolutely any case. I've never once demanded money from you. I literally said "If you're so sure that I am wrong, lets please post this and let everyone tell me that I am wrong. If that is the case, all the money is yours"

I also don't appreciate you cutting and pasting random conversations that only benefit yourself. Try posting the entirety of them. Maybe I should post the text messages word for word where you call me an *******, among other names, and treat me like a piece of ****. The part where I said "find someone else for scoop" was exactly that. I couldn't find a european player to send you money online to play, so I told you that you could ownroll that or find a backer for it. That's a temporary fix, not a long term thing. We were talking about having you list the package on here, not find a new full time backer. You know this, because like I said, after you won some money, you started playing under me again up until WSOP.

He did not have 15%. My conversation with him was "yea same deal. 50-50 with makeup on our 30%, so you're playing for 15%.. you should definitely come to vegas" He's misconstruing what I said. He knows that he doesn't get paid until makeup is cleared and has already stated in person that he acknowledges the existence of prior makeup.

When I spoke to him at the final table in person, he said "dude you put up X amount, I put up X amount. we deserve the same piece, it's only fair" The "X amount" that I put up was for HIS expenses and HIS tournament buyins. The X amount that he put up was HIS expenses and HIM enjoying nice dinners and clubs, etc. I don't think that argument is all too valid.

Ok one quick question, you pretend to have 30% of his action but how much did you pay for that "30%"?

12.5%, we sold 70% at markup for all of the side events and the main

and i can appreciate you sticking up for your roomate, but i'm not "pretending" to have anything

I can't see how you think its 'our' 30%. You clearly stated you each have 15%. If there were no talks prior about swaps then the % comes and goes out of his end. This is standard swapping procedure. I can't see how this is even arguable at this point, the facts are on the table.

So you pay 12.5% and expect to have 30%? Doesn't add up for me...

Just like I'd tell my other horse we each have 50% when it's a 50-50 deal. Makeup is assumed and has already been verbally, and most likely in writing also, that makeup is involved. How can he can 15% when makeup is added to the equation? Stating that it's 15-15 is saying that there is no makeup involved. Why would that ever be the case?

Wait a second, you received the markup? That doesn't seem fair unless that amount was erased from his makeup figure, markup should go to the player.

I have 30% until makeup is cleared. My actual cut is 15% when in profit. I don't have all my roomates coming on here being accusatory, so I'd appreciate if you two would not continually flame me and turn this into a war over who is right. I'm asking for UNINVOLVED third parties to comment, not people that are biased. Hence, none of my friends are here defending me.

Maybe. This is my first time dealing with the sale of action for a large percentage. My only experience is with another horse of mine. I put him into everything 100% under 10k for the most part. If he wants to play a 5k that I can't fully back, or a 10k, we sell say 30%-50% of the action. He's more than fine marking it up and allowing me to pay a little less, because he would never be able to play the tournaments otherwise.

It doesn't matter what you tell your other horses, its irrelevant. When I pick up a new horse it is my responsibility to clearly go over all details, as should be the same with you. Horses who are in backing deals swap all the time. It comes and goes out of there pocket unless negotiated prior with the backer.

The fact that you have a makeup deal makes this an insanely good deal for you, much better than the other parties for three reasons.

1) The subsidizers are putting up a premium for the shares
2) The player is not seeing any benefit from selling his or her action at markup
3) You are getting a discount on the shares bought in addition to having the equity from the horse's makeup

I think the fair way to do it is to either let the horse have the money from markup or deduct it from his makeup (since he needed money for expenses letting him have it would be best). After that the 4% swap should go to paying makeup and then the remainder be split 50/50 IF the agreement is as you stated it.

As a long term backer you should be paying face value for your equity (30%) since you have the equity from makeup. This is how the agreement worked when you backed the horse online, why would it change now?

If you took 12.5%, shouldn't you have 12.5% until MU is paid off and then 6.25% after that?

Like I said, I've only dealt with this one time before and it was somewhat different. I don't know what is correct. We can talk about it for future reference, but he bricked this year, so percentages and heresay about what would have been a fair deal are pretty irrelevant.