I recently played the $25k WPT Championship. I decided to play it last minute, and flew in from Madrid the night before. I messaged some people to sell action, since I didn't have time to post and deal with a thread.

I sold 30% to Max, Charder rolled over his share from my high roller and I also messaged crisp, who had bought a share of me in the EPT high Roller.

So, I booked 25% with them the day before the tournament. I also had a share booked with Vivek, but I wasn't sure how much it was for (depended on getting cash, etc.)

On the day of the tournament, I got the cash from Charder and I wasn't able to reach Vivek because his phone didn't have service.

As I regged and was about to start playing, I saw Vivek and conversed with him. He regretted that I wasn't able to contact him, and that I had to sell off a lot of my action that he would've bought. We agreed to reduce his share to 5%.


I went online in marketplace on my phone before I started playing and posted this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/18...mation-1037929

In this thread, I explicitly confirm everyone's shares before I start playing, which I always do, so I can avoid any confusion. With all my threads, I always have lots of people reserving and buying or swapping or whatever, and so no matter what I always try to make a final confirmation before I play.

In that thread, I explicitly state that icfund/crisp has 20% of my action and not 25%, and a little less explicitly (I am typing on my phone, after all) say it's because I sold it to vivek, although the reasons don't really matter.

I reduced icfund/crisp's share because (a) they were the last ones to confirm their share, so obviously it should come out of there and (b) it's easier for me since they were the only ones who hadn't paid me any money yet, so I could just ask them to pay less instead of having to ship $ back to someone.

Now, it should be beyond obvious that I intended for them to have 20%. After all, I posted it publicly in marketplace, I always reserve the right to change people's shares before I play, especially in an event that I sold last minute to. For example, form my Madrid thread:

In fact, before the Madrid Main, I bought back 10% of my share from max. I didn't wait for confirmation, I just posted in my threads and made it clear that's what I was gonna do, and I did it. Max didn't complain, and I busted the tournament a few hours in.


Now... as you can guess I got 3rd in the event for around 600k and crisp/icfund are claiming that what I posted here doesn't matter and that when I confirmed 25% I am locked into that and not allowed to change it even though they haven't sent me any money and I am hastily trying to sort all of this out a day before the event and also trying to find cash.

Here are the PMs that have been exchanged:
Now it seems beyond obvious to me that the share here is 20%:

1. I have the right to change shares before the event, especially one as franticly assembled as this, and especially when I haven't gotten any cash yet

2. I posted it publicly before I played to confirm everyone's %s

3. I beyond a doubt would have only asked for 20% from them if I hadn't cashed, as that's what I publicly stated. I have a hard time believing that if I had busted out of the money they would have INSISTED over PMs that they pay me 25%.

4. I have an absolutely unblemished marketplace record, have sold action tons of times without issue, and shipped out well over a million dollars in winnings to investors on here without batting an eye. It seems pretty unlikely that I would try to angleshoot someone over 5% especially by doing it ON A PUBLIC FORUM where I do business all the time.




What says you, marketplace?

easiest 20% ever.

mo money, mo problems.

I'm not sure exactly who qualifies to answer here but in the marketplace I've only been an investor so my opinion shouldn't be biased and I'd say this is pretty clear that the action should be 20%. It sucks for Crisp but like you said if you would have lost you would have obviously been requesting he pay his 20% share (not 25%).

I expected this to be closer, looks like a pretty clear 20%. Maybe sell him 5% of your next 25k in buyins at face value as a favor or something, but you aren't obligated to give him anything over 20%

Looks like a pretty clear 20%, esp given your record/history as well.

+1

20% is the final number. It was posted publicly prior to the start of the event

I agree that it should be 20%, but you should have PM'ed him before the event explaining why it was reduced. Not many investors check old threads, so I can see why he/they would be pretty disappointed to find out after a 600k score that they had less action. Although I think you should only be liable for 20% because you did make it public, I think in order to maintain a good relationship with someone that has invested a lot of money in you, you should offer at least a little something for not being 100% clear.

Why wouldn't you PM crisp that you were reducing his share to 20%? Did you two talk at all between the PM confirming the 25% and the end of the tourney?

When you quote this:

I really don't think that disclaimer justifies selling shares the day before the event, and buying them back shortly thereafter. I think that disclaimer is for selling big packages, you can buy back some action in later tourneys if you hit a monster score.

There is zero chance you are angle shooting, I definitely respect your integrity on this matter. I'm not doubting your intent, but intent isn't all that matters. I still think I would tend to give Crisp 20% in this situation, but you clearly should have contacting him privately after you said "booked". I mean, if he doesn't get a PM back, then what does "booked" even mean? That's the first thing I did after Black Friday changed my WSOP package, I started PMing my investors about things that changed.

I can see both sides here tbh.

through PMs you sold him 25% and you say "25% at 1.15 booked"


it isnt his fault you didnt have time to make the thread and had to hastily sell shares to this. if in the OP of the selling thread you had your "buy back" clause written, i think it makes this case pretty much over, but again, since you didnt have time to do it, you might run into things like this.


you also say "without a doubt i wouldnt accept his other 5% if i busted early". of course you would say that (and tbh, i trust you believe you would/i actually think you would if it came down to it), but going on that in business deals just feels wrong to me.

I think you made a mistake in this instance and its not as clear as you think it is, but am unsure of what should happen. I think a compromise should be reached and maybe give him action on 22.5 er something since he buys a lot/is a MP reg as well. or maybe sell him some mtts at face value er something during the WSOP/next years WSOPe

you would obv be able to sell your action without crisp buying, but still think you should share some of the blame.


edit: wanna make it clear. i dont think you were angling at all. dont want it to come off as me calling you scummy er anything. just a misunderstanding

20% and not even close really imo

To be clear, the buyback quote was from the Madrid thread, where he bought my action in Madrid and was just used as an example. In this instance I sold over pm/email only becuase I was short on time, and just posted the confirmation of everyone's %s in the marketplace.

I regret not Pming him to inform him, but I also assumed he'd see the MP thread (and honestly find it hard to believe he didn't) since someone from icfund reads every single thread that's posted in Marketplace, and usually does it within a matter of minutes.


I don't think that it's very close either, but I figured it was easier for me to just post this and have every single person agree with my side (to varying degrees) rather than argue about it over PM

Is it correct that under accepted poker tournament action-selling standards a seller has the right to reduce unilaterally a booked % prior to the event starting? If so, it's 20%, if not, it's 25%. And if the answer is yes, it really shouldn't be IMO, that would mean that "booked" binds the buyer but not the seller, in which case it really isn't "booked".

I also don't think your disclaimer about the right to repurchase action in another thread is relevant here, setting aside that it's in another thread, there's a big difference between keeping more action yourself and giving it to a different buyer.

25% and it doesnt really matter you have stated in past threada you can buy back pieces or change pieces. Via pm is essentially same as in live, "you want a piece of this event" "ya sure 25%" "ok. Booked 25%" means 25% is booked. U didnt tell him via pm that it could turn into 20%. If he doesnt know the thread exists, he thinks hes sweating 25% tje whole time. you should of pmd him an confirm change if you pmd him to buy. Of course ur intentions are good.

If this was live. And you saw sergey and asked if he wanted a piece he says ya 25% and you say ok booked. And you guys head on to wherever your going. You run into vivek. Say damn i sold 25% to crisp. Iif your going to change sergeys amount you would def have to find sergey to confirm the change. Not just make a thread on here stating it. And consider thats him being notified.

This is my biggest concern. I think this situation fairly close. However, like Galen pointed out, I find it incredibly unlikely that none of Crisp's people saw that thread where Galen said they had 20%. It would be the epitome of angle shooting if they sought 25% of Galen's action if he cashed and paid 20% of his buy-in if he didn't. I don't think that happened in this case, but avoiding even the appearance of impropriety when involving multi-thousand dollar transactions is crucial.

It's closer to 25% that people are making it out to be for reasons todd points out, but would vote 20% if i had to choose one or the other. Can't figure out why you'd sell to vivek after being sold out, not very fair to the guy who bought action, i'd give him 5% of your wsop main at face or something similar to make up for the semi slowroll.

It's definitely not as clear cut as you seem to think it is. I agree with Zima that this sort of situation calls for a compromise of some sort. You really needed to directly communicate with him if you're going to unilaterally reduce his share for some reason.

Also, I don't know if this is relevant at all, but the time between me saying "booked" and me saying "sorry, my mistake, 20%" in the post was 1 hour and 18 minutes.

Obviously, I regret not PMing him when I made the post, like I said, but I sort of assumed he would see the post since they see everything asap, but that was an error on my part.


I had been negotiating a sale to vivek the day before, which was prior to icfund's involvement, but it stalled when when vivek's phone lost service all morning as I was trying to get $, so I sold to icfund, then talked to vivek face to face and felt bad that I didn't save him anything at all, so I felt it was fair to at least give him 5% of the action that I was selling, and reduce icfund's share which I did on the spot.

If vivek's phone had had service that morning, icfund would have had 0% of my action in all likelihood.

none of that stuff that happened with vivek matters at all really (in regards to ICfund).


you said you felt bad you didnt save vivek any, so why should icfund suffer since you made that mistake?

also, its not like you are doing anyone favors by letting them buy your action (well, you have been killing it, so its kinda close, ha ha). icfund shouldnt just be happy with 20% and move on because "hey, they made so much money anyway!!!".

What does the term "booked" mean to you? Given that you had no buy-back disclaimer in your PM or the thread for that tourney.

Ya nothing other then the fact you booked 25% and confirmed 25% with him via pm matters. To be honest. Past threads, your dealings with vivek, etc, all have nothing to do with you booking 25% with crisp for this event, then not alerting him of a change.

Other then a post in a thread he knew nothing about, he was never aware (seemingly) of the change. Comes down to you booking 25% with someone, them not knowing it could become 20%, them not knowing it changed, them thinking and sweating 25% which they thought they had and were planning on paying for.

Was sergey told when he bought 25% that he may have to give away 5% of his action to vivek? If not, then you booked 25% with him and should of found him to confirm a change with him. Especially in potentially this big a dollar amount transaction. You found him easy enough via pm to confirm booking the 25%. Is im sure where hes coming from.

I dunno, really though, both sides are innocent. Thats why marketplace has threads, if you go out side of threads which have guidelines, and use pm, your essentially handshaking on a booking almost same as live.

I want to keep my investors happy. You may need them in the future. Little things like this may turn them off. Especially when its this close a scenario. But i dont think you look bad at all either way really.

"If vivek's phone had had service that morning, icfund would have had 0% of my action in all likelihood." ???????? Meaning before you had a chance to book with sergey, or meaning after you had booked with sergey. If you found vivek via phone, are you saying you would of canceled all of sergeys action? Or finding vivek via phone before booking with sergey?

I was answering FE's question as to why I gave Vivek any action.

The tournament was starting (and it was already Day 2), Vivek's phone wasn't working, and I wanted to get playing. I did what I felt was fairest to everyone involved, and then to clear up any confusion I posted everything publicly so that there wouldn't be any debate. In the Tmay situation he never got online and confirmed things before the tournament, so I wanted to avoid that and state explicitly what shares people had before I played, and that's what I did.



I can see how icfund might be disappointed given the results, just as he would've been happy to see the post if I didn't bust, but I don't think that really has any impact on what he's owed.


Also, if I busted the tournament outside the money, then came into MP and said "HEY GUYS WELL I OBV POSTED THAT HE HAD 20% BUT HE NEVER CONFIRMED HA HA SO HE STILL OWES ME 25% GOT EM" that I would be laughed out of the building.

Can't believe people are saying this isn't close. Definitely feels like you're saying "well, be happy you got 20% of a big score, sorry it's not 25% you initially booked, but oh well, you still got lots!"

This is somewhat similar to the TMay thread honestly....your intentions really don't matter. Saying stuff like "I would've only asked for 20% if I didn't cash" is totally irrelevant. And Vivek's deal with you should have nothing to do with anyone who already booked with you. That's on you. IMO, you booked 25% with them.

This is a very valid point. In Madrid I saw two reputable 2+2ers/marketplace regs discussing buying back pieces from people they sold to and they were both joking about the idea of not sending back if Max didn't notice that he only had 30% instead of 40% or something along those lines.

I'm certain they weren't serious, but I agree that things should be done to make things simpler for Max and other major buyers