I will answer that once I get home tho...

Look Lot...I know it appears otherwise, but I am not trying to be an ahole.

I am simply trying to get you to see that when you accept investor money for packages, you have to follow the plan that the investors agreed upon.

Say for example you were a financial advisor. You asked investors to ship you money to invest in stock X, which has historically paid 8% a year consistently. Then after you take in the money, you decide to put it in stock Y which could make 20% or could lose big....it's higher risk/reward......and more volatile. You just can't do that.

That's pretty much what you did...you took investors money under the premise it would be invested in an MTT that paid out the top 10%...and dumped it into an MTT that paid out only 3%. On top of that you swapped 5% with a player that none of the investors knew of or had any history on.


The whole idea of "I'll make it right after the fact" isn't relevant here. You take in money for a specific set of events of which the details are laid out in advance and you stick with the plan.

The fact that you have gone out of pocket for buyins to replenish the cash bankroll because you have been getting crushed at 2/5 during the stakes is a nice touch...but that's your choice after you have played the sessions/hrs you said you would play over and above the original plan.

As to mincashes....while that is not the goal...they are important as they provide 100% ROI in spots while being able to continue to go for that big score partially on staked money. You get to play more MTT's and even out more variance than your bankroll alone could provide.

I don't have a dog in this fight....but there is protocol that goes along with accepting money from investors for packages....and I am just suggesting you respect that and follow it.

I appreciate the well thought out post.

I honestly didn't believe I was doing anything wrong.

I figured if I didn't fire the 2nd bullet my investors would have been more upset.

Also, I didn't know having an $18 a hour win rate at 2/5 was getting crushed.

I thought you have to lose money at a stake to get "crushed."

Lets wait until I have 500 hours in at any level before we decide if I am a winner or a loser at it.

I can't help variance that occurs when I am playing on a stake or off it.

Time will tell the truth about my 2/5 ability.

Also, the cash game bankroll has never been in jeopardy.

I've gone in my own pocket when I hit the agreed upon stoploss for the night and I want to keep playing.

I ended up winning $327.00 tonight at MGM Detroit $1/$2 NLHE.

Revised Results

Cash game bankroll:$2,127 (+$127)

Tournament bankroll:$160.00 (-$975)

If any of you that backed me have a problem with me firing that 2nd bullet please let me know and I'll adjust tournament bankroll accordingly and eat the 2nd bullet 100% out of my personal bankroll.

They'll be no hard feelings on my end if you really wouldn't have wanted me to play day 1b.

Thanks.

Since the start of this thread, September 1st 2013 I am making $7.85 a hour at $2/$5.

192 hour sample size.

It definitely needs to get better.

By 500 hours it will be to $30+, 1000 hours $40+.

Watch and learn.

This is a great post.

Agree with the analogy he used and understand how what I did could be considered a mistake.

Here is a serious question...

What happens if I enter that tournament on my own dime and bink it?

or

Lets say I post in this thread everyone who invested has until end of level 4 today to confirm they want their % of day 1b, then half my investors don't see that post and I go on to bink it.

Then do they now feel left out and cheated out of a big score?

Then am I an ******* because "omg you're not going to pay so and so when he has invested in you since the start and he hadn't signed on in a couple days so he had no chance to confirm, but you know he would have wanted you to play day 1b."

I had a unique situation on my hands (I mean seriously, has anyone ever heard of something like that?) and I don't think there was one PERFECT way to handle it.

The 5% swap never happens either if this curveball wasn't thrown at me.

I do have a pretty good feel for the people who invest in me and I felt in my heart that they would want me to fire bullet #2, so I did.

I also thought the 5% swap would be considered a smart move by everyone who invested.

You're all entitled to your own opinion, though.

Just explaining what was going through my mind.

Suggestion to possibly avoid the same situation in the future:

When you get to the casino where the tourney is being held....grab a structure sheet, a payout sheet (if available) and ask some questions at the poker desk like: "So X tourney pays out the standard top 10% right?"

Ive seen multi day 1 tournies where they quit at a certain blind level and you move on to day two. I have seen the same type of tourney where they play down to a certain percentage of players who move on to day two....these things can vary alot....then you have state commissions and regulatory groups that throw in silly **** in areas where they rarely run tournements and mostly deal cash only.

Generally someone at the poker desk will know if something is "weird" (they are no longer honoring the guarantee, there are weird rules for who moves on to day two or they are only paying out the top 3% of players because some regulator is holding them to their estimate of entrants)

Compare all the verbal info to the available sheets and go from there.

If something seems weird....drop a message in the thread before any tourney tickets are purchased and ask the investors to sign off on it.

try and get input from input from investors in advance where possible.

As to my comments about the 2/5 sessions....I didn't go through the whole thread and do the math...I was just basing it on this post:


LotGrinder's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Detroit
Posts: 3,095

Re: Rise of The Bull: The Quest For The People's Ring
Bad News

I have decided against playing the Heartland Poker Tournament.

I've lost 3 out of my last 4 2/5 sessions and feel as though I've been making a lot of small mistakes that have been adding up.

I've also been running bad and I feel as though I am going to find a way to lose every pot.

I am concerned I won't be playing at 100% efficiency in a $1,650.00 buy in tournament and I don't want to put that amount of money on the line unless I feel 100% confident/at the absolute top of my game.

Good News

Even though we are in the hole as far as cash game action and tournament action goes,

My bad...I made assumptions based on 4 sessions.....not the bigger sample...my apologies

It's ok. I did post my 2/5 win rate since Sep 1st.

It's not acceptable, but I'm not getting crushed.

Appreciate the detailed explanations and will now be better prepared for a situation like this if it happens again.

WillCK makes good points but, I think this is one of those situations that someone was going to be mad no matter what you did.

Also,
This makes it sound like there are weird state laws regarding poker tournaments/payouts. Sticking with the stock analogy, shouldn't the investor perform a full due diligence on their investment? Isn't it your responsibility to research your investment thoroughly?
<<I know,this is only an argument based on the 2nd bullet, not the swap.>>
Maybe that's a stretch, but I don't believe anyone can blame him for firing the second bullet of the package, especially considering he felt good about the tournament(vs when he didn't play a $1675 after running bad and not feeling good about it--and I don't think that anyone was upset about that). On the other hand, if he skipped the second bullet that would've been ok as well. He made a judgment call. It's not the first time he's done it ($1675).

There shouldn't be any doubt that he wants the best for his investors, maybe to a fault.
You aren't going to find any other packages that you can invest in that come with freeroll chances to make up for losses.
He had the opportunity to swap 5% with someone who had above average chips in a high variance tournament. He saw it as +EV. He made another judgment call.
Is there anyone that invested that would've said no if he had the time to get in touch with you?

Lotgrinder's packages are atypical. And that's one of the reasons they keep selling out.


Please reserve me a piece for the next package.

Thanks for the kind words.

I appreciate your post.

You touch on a lot of things that were going through my mind.

I also appreciate WillCK's because I do aspire to eventually play in higher buy in tournaments and I'll potentially need more backers.

This thread is titled "Rise Of The Bull" for a reason.

In order to gain more backers I'll need a proven track record of handling investors money correctly and producing profit.

So, I do want to follow standard protocol...especially if varying from it in an oddball situation like this would potentially turn people off from investing in me.

The next package will be at no mark up, feature mostly $1/$2 cash game action, and will be the WSOP circuit event in Durant, Oklahoma.

Currently consulting with my poker friends about hotel/etc.

First cash game action of the package will be Fri/Sat December 27th+28th.

($1/$2 NLHE at MGM Detroit where my win rate is $23.68 a hour over 800 hr sample size.)

Thanks for staying with me.

I pm'd Justin to let him know I did not have an issue with anything that transpired on this stake. I admit that if he had known before posting the package (which he did not) that the tourney was only paying out the top 3% I probably wouldn't have been a part of it but I have no issue with him swapping 5%, or firing the second bullet, in hindsight considering how little it affects my minor 4% stake. I am rolling over my remainder in to his next package and may even add more to it once the package is posted.

I'm fine with it, but you should consult with investors before firing another bullet especially in that tourney that only paid top 3% . Next Package your crushing. BTW roll over my %. thx

***Choctow, Durant, WSOP Circuit Event Package***

Cash Game Action:

Friday, Dec 27th, MGM Detroit $1/$2
Saturday, Dec 28th, MGM Detroit $1/$2
Thursday, Jan 2nd, MGM Detroit $1/$2
Friday, Jan 3rd, MGM Detroit $2/$5

Cash Game Bankroll needed: $2,000.00

Tournament Action:

Event #1 (Thursday, Jan 9th - $365)
Event # 3A or #3B (Friday, Jan 10th- $365)
Event #3C or #3D (Saturday, Jan 11th- $365)
Event #7 (Monday, Jan 13th- $365)
Event # 10 (Wednesday, Jan 15th- $580)

Tournament Bankroll needed: $2,040.00

Total Bankroll: $4,040.00

1%= $40.04
5%= $200.20
10%=$400.40

Selling up to 55%, will be playing no matter what.

This is the fourth run of combining some of my cash game action and tournament action for you guys because I want this to be a profitable venture.

After this tournament series, "The People's Bankroll" will be dispersed accordingly, and staking for the next event will go up in this thread.

All funds must be sent via Paypal/Chase Quickpay or given to me face to face at one of the casinos.

Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/Lotgrinder

Twitter:

https://twitter.com/Lotgrinder

Please feel free to ask any questions....

roll me over (how much is that?)

Doing all that right now.

Give me ten minutes.

All your %s will be up.

$2,287.00 was left over from last package.

So 1%= $22.87

Stakers:

Kyle_R (3.5%) PAID
er7eman (3.5%) PAID
NarcoCop (2.5%) PAID
fozzy71 (2.5%) PAID
Jl514 (14%) PAID
Mdroz247 (3.5%) PAID
Rufus2012 (1.75%) PAID
Acdawg (.75%) PAID
Buggits30 (1.25%) PAID
rponeal (1.25%) PAID

Merry Christmas

All your %s were rounded up nice.

Go us.

10.5% remaining available for sale.

GL and thanks for rounding up.

No problem.

Feel great about this one.

Might even open a 2nd package for the Main Event depending on how I'm feeling a week before.

I'll take 5% LG. Roll over whatever's left from last pckg & let me know how much I owe. Tks

I"ll take 1%.

2%

I'll take whatever is left to close it out...pm me your pp info.

Stakers:

Kyle_R (3.5%) PAID
er7eman (3.5%) PAID
NarcoCop (2.5%) PAID
fozzy71 (2.5%) PAID
Jl514 (14%) PAID
Mdroz247 (3.5%) PAID
Rufus2012 (1.75%) PAID
Acdawg (.75%) PAID
Buggits30 (1.25%) PAID
rponeal (1.25%) PAID
tmade (2%)
llDayo (1%)
rufus2012 (3.25% more)
sflnit (4%)

This package is now closed.