Someone buys a piece of someone in the Marketplace for the WSOP. Ships them 10k, lets say yesterday...WSOP comes around and the player still cant access that 10k or stars/tilt/ub say welp sorry gg we don't have it anymore.. What happens? Who is on the hook?

I dont see how the seller could be liable considering this extreme situation. Tough spot tho.

I will say the person who shipped the 10 K. I am biased because I have been someone to seek stakes and not give them. But someone seeking stakes likely cannot afford the risk of losing that money, while the person giving the stake can.

Of course, EVERY effort should be made to recover that money.

Just now on FTP where I can still play normally in the US

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/officia...er-withdrawals

Give this a weeks time

Statement from Full Tilt Poker Regarding Recent Check Withdrawal IssuesIn light of recent events involving the freezing of certain accounts, Full Tilt Poker would like to assure all players that their funds remain safe and secure. Processing of both deposit and withdrawal requests is proceeding as normal and is still available to all of our players.

All players who were affected by the current situation have had their funds returned to their accounts and all new withdrawal requests are processing normally. We assure all players on Full Tilt Poker that your online playing experience will not change and that you will be able to both deposit and withdraw funds as needed. Your money remains safe, secure and accessible at all times.

Full Tilt Poker remains committed to the protection of our players’ security and legal rights, and will continue to provide the best and safest online poker room available worldwide.

I know the horse isn't on the hook.. How could he be? We are all getting shiatted on.

Seems like a tough spot for both sides....

What at all is tough about it?

If the money is worthless its worthless no matter what account its in, buyer or seller (if its siezed forever).

If the money becomes valid again at some point and able to be cashed out or transfered (back to normal), the seller obviously ships it back to the buyer.

If thats before the wsop (like within a week from today back to normal) when this is all back to normal, then the seller plays as planned. Life goes on

If its post wsop when it becomes available again and the tourney does not get played, the money gets shipped back to the buyer.

If the money is completley lost, not able to cash out, seized (forever) (Doubtful). No one is on the hook, the money would of been worthless no matter what account it was in buyer or seller.

Give it a week or two to play out I feel it will all be fine. Just my two cents

Tough question. I think it needs a little refining.

If the money wouldn't have been otherwise available to the sender anyhow I'm not sure trying to resolve it before it all plays out with the DOJ and the sites makes much sense regardless of how it was going to be used.

edit: basically the timeline walkmyline was getting at.

could be a transfer from a euro account

What if someone sent 10k a month ago? Does it change? At what point does it shift

my second thought earlier today btw after ohhhhhhh **** was boom goes the marketplace.

Charder if that player cannot access that money than obv its in the middle ground, however at least you know u got a 10k refund coming sometime soon. However if the player still finds a way to grind and win! and you paid for your shares that can get sticky imo.

Charder there is no point of "shift".. Unless you explicitly told the horse to cash out immediately @ Xtimeframe ago and he didn't....

Only people on the hook are Bitar and co.

obviously this is the ****tiest of ****ties situations. Both parties have to come to a realization that they are both losing in this and the best they can do is hope those funds become unfrozen at some point.

Hey Charder,

Thanks for starting this thread. I tried earlier but was basically begging for someone like you to come in to add legitimacy to the discussion.

My personal thought is that we need to remain cool through this and and treat the funds, if frozen, as that, frozen.

They would remain the backers, but just be tied up in the horses account, until which time they would/could be returned to the backer.

Obviously (unless another agreement could be reached) they would not be applied to whatever event they were supposed to be applied to.

So that we don't have a total ****storm, I think we as a marketplace should come to an agreement on what standard practice should be right now, so that there are no hard feelings and things get sorted out while this is all going on.

As Poker Professionals let's all act like adults, since the DOJ and FBI obviously are not.

Just my $0.02

I have no idea man. I sold a bunch for my EPT package, but luckily haven't rec'd most of it. I've bought about 15 big chunks of people over the last few days, no idea if they will honor it or not.

Obv if you don't play then ppl get refunds if $ comes back, but idk what happens if you sold big chunks, or if you sold small chunks and cancel them and play anyway or what.

What a ****ing fiasco

I feel like it's pretty simple.

If the money is valid, then the money in seller's account that has been transferred to them should be transferred back to the buyer.

If the money is siezed (invalid) then the money lost is on the buyer and the seller has no responsibility to reimburse the buyer.

If the seller has cashed out the money and doesn't play the event, then they have a 100% responsibility to pay the money sent back to the buyer.

There could be situations that I'm missing, but I feel like this is fairly cut and dry as far as moral hypotheticals go.

Id say, if you can get the money off first, then great, backers % remains, move forward.

If you cant get money offline beforehand, backers shares would be canceled, (make sure they know its canceled way ahead of first event) and horse should endeavor to return the money, when the **** fight online is sorted.

Yeah but how the fk is the buyer supposed to know whether or not the seller cashed it out?

I mean, thank god like 80 of the 92k that I was selling for EPTs was just reserved and not sent to me yet.

Still, I've lost like over 50k in cash, plus another 10-50k in pieces, equity and sold **** on marketplace, idk who owes who what or whatever. It's gonna really suck if the money ends up being worthless, and so all the shares I bought are invalid but then I get tons of pressure to honor the pieces I sold so it's lose/lose idk

Is that actually a new statement based on recent events, or was that already there from previous withdrawal issues?

The reason I ask is that the second paragraph surely doesn't sound like it's being written in the context of today's developments.

Also, if I go to that link now, I get a 404 error, which makes me think it's been taken down because it's no longer valid.

Edit: Google has that page Cached from April 13th, so this is definitely an old statement, and doesn't really pertain to today.

Hate to pile on, but if you have read the full indictment (like I have) you would be much more worried than, "give this a weeks time."

The indictment seems to indicate that not only are they going to seize the funds, but also that players themselves are potentially liable for knowingly profiting from an illegal criminal enterprise (similar language is being used in the Bernie Madoff scandal clawbacks.)

This is very much the real deal, I really hope cooler heads prevail on all sides of the matter and regulation is the end result, but until then bring your popcorn and watch the fireworks.

For now, as a community, let's figure out what the rules are on funds that are in limbo, reserves/%s for events and so forth. This is especially important for people like Daut, Charder and Galen but also applies to everyone.

Again, we're adults, let's act like it and show some character in the face of adversity.

But let's also lay down some rules that are fair and we can all agree to.

Morgan

Expecting a lot of problems/discussions resulting if the current situation isnt resolved quickly (higly doubt it ), e.g. some situations that i could come up with top of my head (especially for events coming up soon like ept's):

a) european player (where money is still valid online) staked us player (money seized?)
b) player hadn't sold out, canceled (or set limit for package to run), but hadn't shipped back
c) ppl booked flights etc. expecting confirmed but not yet send transfers
d) (european) seller decided to unbook action (to be safe) and send money back to us buyer's account
e) "ship and u have action" quotes (especially between randoms)
... and so on

Hope i'm wrong!

I think you're reading the language wrong. The language as I read it concerned people involved in "running/operating a business", though the way it is worded makes it look like it might mean "anybody who participates in the entire thing in any way".

Glad I haven't bought marketplace action in about a month.