I don't think whether or not Galen is being unethical is the issue...the issue is if the MPneeds oversight to save ppl from themselves...this is done in all real world fluid markets....PPL DO need to be saved lest the markets grind to a halt

I am not sure how I can explain how its -ev other than the interest free loan but the back half of the pkg is clearly not an isolated event since you have action based on previous results..I'm Bonn try and think of a way to explain

Thanks. I appreciate that.

the only thing I can think of is cancelling action based on being ahead is that its akin to folding pkt aces pre BC you have just won 4 straight with then...folding the 5th time makes all 5 hands show a net loss

There's a problem in the poker community where once people establish a certain reputation, they have a lot of opportunity to make money off of that reputation and the automatic trust that comes with it, sometimes manipulating others and encouraging them to act against their interests to get there. People have a lot of incentive to leverage their name and their connections and discourage others from challenging the actions that misrepresent themselves. It's why so many mediocre coaches have eerily pristine public feedback, why you sometimes need to whisper around and be part of a particular group to know who's broke and won't pay you back if you give them money, why some players are unduly let off the hook for indiscretions and others are unduly piled up on. Our incentives aren't quite right to safeguard when it comes to people who have a lot of respect.

It's extremely important that asking questions about taking advantage of our reputations to con others is an accusation that can be made freely and without extreme loadedness, so that people don't have to wonder - is that coach actually that respected? Is that player actually safe to loan money to? Is that forum hero cleared from scandal actually clean? Is that castaway who didn't spend a lot of time here really the scum of the earth? Or are there things going on that people were too selfish about because of their own standing, and didn't bring to light to the rest of the community, or even ask?

I don't think there's anything unethical about offering these conditions and markup. I do think that OP should be extremely patient with questions and concerns that his claims are not genuine (I think he probably wanted to be patient, but got frustrated). Not because there's anything wrong with this thread, but because it's hard enough as it is to question someone like OP's credibility in the poker world, and in order to differentiate and inform concerning the broader population of people who may attempt shenanigans, we need to be able to do that.

Not sure why Pudge got his panties all in a bunch. Galen wasn't dishonest with any of his pricing, terms, or anything related to this operation (as far as I can tell). I think it's fairly obvious his markup would be considered "predatory" if FatalError was using it in the subprime bank loan manner, but that's the fault of people who bought pieces of him expecting him to have a 60%+ ROI.

The fact that poker players either don't understand backing math or actually find value in this investment doesn't mean that Galen is acting unethically. He's an arrogant guy who used to work for an unethical scammer (Dr. Bob) and he's charging ridiculous prices - which is fine to mock him for - but nothing about this is unethical and/or morally repugnant.

ETA: Galen is absolutely wrong if he thinks that discussion of his skill is irrelevant and inappropriate. It is very relevant, and it is not against the TOS of the Marketplace or the Staking subforum. It is a critical issue - perhaps THE critical issue - in this whole debate.

Thanks a lot for that post mersrnnary....I agree with a lot of it..I think I've been made to look like scum of earth by ppl in the forum it feels like u were talking boutme...ppl go to great length to manipulate public images

I personally don't think Mr. Hall meant to be predatory I just think his ego got carried away

Nonetheless, I think a regulatorybody of some sort is necessary to both vet the horses and protect the market...

Just another thing...I was trolled relentlessly by people ITF that were well respected and its affected my ability. to raise capital to this day...it doesn't matter that the trollers were 18 ye old ass holes we humans have a herd mentality...these things cascade and become unstoppable

but the truth is that there are quite a lot. of ppl who r out. to. rape poker for anything they can get and some. sell action...don't know if OP is one of them..but how to know?

Well I think mersrnnary upped the ante in this thread so I will just have to vent a little...I don't. care what ppl sell MU at but its fairly simple to calculate whats fair so maybe a sticky

Second, my old backer refuses to vouch for me for something petty outside poker even though he octupled his investment in me...I filled my obligation and paid happily and promptly...I deserve recognition for thattbyb

There are sellers in here who have fudged results and others selling action based on ghosted results

So it kind of pisses me off that I can't sell action to the easiest tournament at the lowest MU BC some kid holds a grudge while two breakeven players sell out

Maybe we need certification

no, you dont

dude unrealzeal you can't sell action to stuff because you suck at poker and people realize that you indeed, suck at poker. Also you have a shady multi accounting history AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I really hope Galen binks something off! I think this thread (while sometimes pretty ridiculous and out of line) garnered some really good discussion that needed to be brought up. I am 100% that Galen did NOTHING unethical here.

We learned (or already knew):

* Galen has a huge ego
* Galen is very good at MTTs
* Galen did nothing unethical
* Ryan Daut is very intelligent, and gave some great info. I hope he continues to post in Marketplace and on 2+2 in general. How he conducted himself was great, classy, and very mature. Maybe he can coach Aguiar on being an adult.
* People like to invest in elite players, regardless of EV
* Most people really don't have a clue what ROIs are attainable in soft fields
* People are jealous of Galen
* People like to troll
* Galen should've put more time and effort in to researching ROIs and pricing his markups accordingly per event
* It's now OK to have discussions about markup in peoples selling thread
* Just because a markup on one event is -EV, the whole package can be very +EV

I think he should take out the bolded clause...it crushes the roi in a way that's not apparent to most...other than that GL

Figured out a good way to splain it

Galen's true roi is a convergence of his roi after an infinite amount of trials so mathematically speaking we are buying an infinite number of packages and taking the avg as our profit

This is identical to him playing one package in an infinite number of universes. In some he loses all and in some he cashes all. If he quits when ahead the ones that he cashes all will not contribute fully to the average but the universes he loses all will. Therefore the losing packages will contribute disproportionately to the avg, thereby lowering the ROI

unrealzeal you should just stop posting, you have proven several times how clueless you are about pretty much everything.

Also in before Galen ships a million in the $5k.

Your logic is right in this post, but does not contribute to the overall argument that you have posed in this thread. The opt out clause might lower the overall ev (assuming you believe Galen to be +ev compared to his markups in all/most of his tournaments), and it will lead to a short term interest free loan situation, but in no way possible will it render the tournaments already played -ev (assuming they were +ev independently to begin with).

I bought a piece of somebody this summer who had 35 tournaments on his schedule. So far he has skipped 11 tournaments. Should I be mad at him for making me lock up more money than necessary? I understand the opportunity cost this presents, but is this something that should be chastised concerning the seller?

I think the Star Trek theme is fitting as well.

+1 to Brandon's cliffnotes

Amidst all of the chaos, 3rd in VDS 10k, and 300k going into day three of 5k.. GL m8te,it was fun watching you play today...

Galen wanted to opt out based on how much he made so its different...pretty sure I can prove this pkg is -ev even if MU was 0

I don't know if I surck but I have a great overall ROI and I don't know why I don't sell but I think it might have to do with the ******* kids who won't leave me be like zima over there and the ******* backers who won't vouch

Lets face it this forum is chock full of dickheads, the nice ones dnt post

Look at responses to my logic...angry and bitter...I don't understand why ppl attack me personally for my logic..attack the logic if u don't agree

anyway I ain't a hater I will root for this pkg

^^^^^^^^^

drunk?

And Brandon wins this thread by far.

I haven't posted in the poker forums on 2+2 for about 2 years, but when I was posting semi-regularly back then you were posting terrible logic and had a completely inability to grasp some pretty basic mathematical concepts. People have explained the problems in your logic over and over (and over and over) and largely (at least at first) without attacking you personally. However when you've spent 2 years (although tbf I have no idea if you've been a regular poster over those 2 years) seemingly not paying any attention to the explanations it's not surprising if people start to attack you personally, since apparently attacking your logic has no effect at all.

Edit: I should add that from your results it does seem like you're a decent poker player, but based on your posting it must come from an intuitive feel for the game because you clearly don't have a great cognitive grasp of the maths involved in a lot of situations. If you did actually make a real effort to have a conscious knowledge of what you can apparently do fairly well at the table then you could probably be a really good player, as opposed to just a decent one.

Your logic itt has been multiple universes. I feel like im listening to someone with a surefire roulette betting system.

Each tournament is a separate event. The only way the (+/-)$EV of the package is changed, whether positive or negative, is that Galen changes the volume of events. Like if you backed someone for 8 roulette spins, but they no longer want backing after their first bink, you have less spins, thus decreasing your -ROI investment by volume. Each tournament is a separate outcome.

Cliffs: you suck at math. The ROI doesnt change, the volume does thus changing the (+/-)$EV

But its all good because we learn...I don't think my strategy posts should have any bearing in MP...

Maybe we can have a point system for completed stakes..I do not want to rely on a voucher h...I did my job and you got paid I don't want to rely on personal feelings

Thoughts?

Also some consumer protection

A way to annonymously report abuses

And one more thing...wizard we already established thy arenot isolated events