This is all exactly right. Just because there is a market equilibrium doesn't mean that more Pareto improvements can't be made (like lowering markup while increasing % sold in many cases). Also, if a bunch of people willing to gamble are buying into clearly overpriced packages then it creates a kind of moral hazard in the marketplace in regards to markups. In a market like the NYSE bad investments make themselves known to less savvy investors much more quickly/easily, but in a market like this a casual investor will probably never know how bad the investment was. That means savvy investors should more actively, for lack of a better word, "police" the market imo.

A controlled market model is asking for trouble IMO. Free market ftw. A perfect market isn't realistic.

and currently freedom includes the ability to question the product at the point of sale.

The issue with declaring certain packages overpriced, is that it is a really hard thing to judge, unless the person stating that it is overpriced has a great knowledge of the person selling and the possible field strength and their skill relative to it. It is also a really easy way to angle shoot and to force sellers to lower their mark up.

For instance, i sold a package to the wynn poker series recently, i sold it at a very fair mark up, and ended up having TUTS come into my thread and bitch at how much mark up i was charging. TUTS has probably played under 200 hands with me lifetime, has never played with me live, has never discussed poker with me, and is utterly knowledgeless as to how the field was going to be. Yet he felt it was his duty to come into my thread and mouth off.

Obviously it was way out of line, and his comments were removed from the thread. But occurrences like it will become much more common place without strict moderation about it.

If some1 like galen had came into the thread and had given solid reasoning as to why my mark up was going to be too high for this particular event/series, it would be far different obviously.

I think for the most part, the people who say it is too high are good nature about it, however i see the possibility of angle shooting by it being much too easy.

The free market system should work the best for the MP in general, if a package dosn't sell, the mark up was too high. Simple, easy, and while it might not be the most profitable long run for everyone, it is fair.

great post op, will keep in mind for when/if i put up a package.

Eh I'm not going to get into it too much, but this is not always true. For instance libel is not acceptable. Protential's post hit some other points i agree with.

For example I think these are fine things to say:
"I'd be interested at 1.15 MU"
"Your package might sell better if you do x, y, and z"
"PM me if the MU decreases"

These are not:
"MU is too high"
"Your schedule of events is bad."
"Your package is -EV for investors."

All 6 of those things effectively does the same thing to a package. We'll have to just agree to disagree from there.

I'm shocked that you think those posts would have the same effect.

Agree with a lot of these points.

One thing that bothers me..well i shouldn't even say bother..but is an interesting point...is when i see someone post.."PM sent" in the thread. And later the person selling confirms that person bought x%. I assume that said investor asked or inquired about a cheaper MU. I kinda have mixed feelings on this because an inexperienced investor will probably just overlook this, while a savy investor will now prob think twice about investing even though it might be a fair mark up. I know it is up to each investor to do their homework and determine what they think is fair or not fair, but it I am always second guessing myself if I see one of these "PM Sent" posts in the thread.

All of this rambling of mine needs to stop. So basically what i wanna know is...If you are an investor..(whether experienced or not)..does seeing one of these "PM Sent" messages lead to to buy/not buy more often? And do you try to get a cheaper MU if you do buy? Because I think it could be unfair to a seller if an experienced buyer says this in his thread as one of the first posts. Now even though the said mark up could be more than fair, all of the investors could now be PMing him asking for a discount, and he has to cut down the MU because no one else will purchase it at the original, fair price.

Thoughts/Comments are appreciated. I dont see much talking about this subject, so maybe im stepping on some toes here, but i think its something that is important to discuss. But maybe not.

It usually has to do with buying the lot and or a big chunk of said sellers package at reduced MU or sometimes face value. If the seller believes they can sell their package out in time without having to sell at reduced MU they will decline, however sometimes sellers will take a MU hit in order to deal solely with one investor as it's primarily easier in terms of a taxable cash.

You tend to see it more or less on the bigger packages and a good amount for WSOP as the packages are bigger. I don't mind it, and feel it's pretty fair if a buyer is willing to buy the lot and or a huge chunk of your action, it's understandable to ask for it at reduced MU.

You will see a lot of sellers lowering their MU for bigger %'s in their MP threads which is basically the same thing as a potential investors offering to buy it all or a big chunk at reduced MU. It's the convenience of dealing with less investors and showing the appreciation by lowering the MU for bigger investments.

It's relative to big MP investors (mostly around WSOP time) reserving all and or big chunks for "X" hrs. At first I was mixed on this, but now as a reg in the MP I feel it's fair and that a lot of big MP buyers have partners and funds to oversee and they need to run it by others, check numbers, etc before they can commit to the big reserve. You tend to see this with big reservers as opposed to 2-10% chunks. Again, I feel this is easier on the seller because selling your package in big chunks is more convenient and easier to deal with on a number of levels IMO in terms of meeting up for reserves, taxes, gathering investor info for taxable cashes, payouts, etc

Just an idea, no negative/constructive comments about someones MU/schedule should be allowed if the thread is still on page 1 or 2 or if it has had a buyer within 48 hours.

Uh, why? There is no need for such censorship here imo.

The second half of my sentence is an important qualifier. If a good cash game player were to sell for the main event at 1.25 having played 10 tournaments in his/her life it would likely be a +EV investment. If a big buyer or well respected poster posted that they thought the markup was too high that would likely unfairly kill the seller's action regardless of whether or not it was +EV to buy.

+1 hoodskier. The way i see it theres no absolute correct way of judging ones markup and sometimes players will think higher of themselves than i think of them, so i dont buy their action. it doesnt mean their markup isnt fair but by pointing it out weather its fair or it isnt it hurts the seller and thats not fair to players who may be worth the buy but are unknown or w/e. Say theres a player who i dont think is good, completely unknown to other mp regs, but others might be happy buying theyre action at 1.5 because theyre more familiar with their game or w/e, but i still wouldnt come in and be like bro ur awful how can u charge that. Sellers who overcharge should be allowed to, with the risk that their package doesnt sell. But its not my judgement to decide whats fair and what isnt and policing threads trying to lower the expected markup; the expected marketplace price for a share should be whatever is successfully selling. At the same time theres sellers who undercharge and its not like people are offering them constructive criticism in that case, pointing out that they could sell higher. Hopefuly this makes sense, my perspective is that all markup negotiations should be done privately.

caveat emptor

I disagree. I always kind of saw the marketplace as an open marketplace like a flea market or anything else. If you go to a flea market to buy a vase, you have every right to negotiate with the seller to get the best price you think you can get. Just as they have every right to either turn you down, or sell cheaper to you, but not tell the next vase buyer how much he sold one to you for.

On a larger scale, those buying huge chunks probably even deserve a discount, because it is better for the seller. Do you think Walmart offers the same price to vendors on wrenches as your local hardware store? Of course not. On 2plus2, I think us small time investors understand where we stand in market influence.

All that said, I can see your point as to how saying "PM sent" is indicative of someone seeking a better deal, though I don't think it affects sales all that much. If anything, I think having a big time buyer (i.e. imawhale) take a huge chunk definitely makes smaller buyers feel more confident in the investment. Plus, PM Sent could be for many reasons - maybe trying to figure out money transfer, asking for additional references, etc.

Maybe a better idea would be for investor to write something like "Res 10% pending PM Sent", which doesn't necessarily imply they are seeking lower markup?

i do agree with doggz that they all imply that the package could be better for buyers and isn't much different than saying "this is a bad investment". It is just a much nicer way of saying so.

Unless it is a clear case of absurd mark up or w/e, i think any1 saying negative things about the package shouldn't be allowed in the thread (obv if you have had bad history with the seller that could be allowed depending on the case). If you want to pm the seller and tell them the above, that is obv more then fine.

A question on WSOP packages unrelated to the discussion above... I notice a lot of guys are putting up packages already, I would like to put up a small prelim package, but I don't know yet what % of myself I would like to sell. This would depend on my upcoming April events (if I do well I won't need to sell as much, if I don't I might want to sell more). What is the best way to handle this? Should I take a reserve list for an undetermined amount of action? Or is this frowned upon and I should wait until later to post?

If you already know what events u want to play regardless and the issue is just how much to sell id just underestimate it so just sell like 30-40% now and waitlist the rest, and open up more shares closer to the event if you dont do well.

Right I know which events already, just don't know how much.

No real reason to post a package right now unless you know exactly what you are doing. There will be plenty of action bought/sold at the end of april and throughout may.

Idea: Allow complaining about markup if it bumps a thread back to the first page and if not wait till it drops off. If thread was off first page best case scenario is a subtle bump anyway and shares at that markup are prob not be in really high demand so someone suggesting to lower markup might just be helping everyone out, or gives the seller another chance to market themselves without having to post bump or a creative version of bump. This I would be okay with in my threads.

+1 i like that idea, a logical compromise.

I like your reasoning, but I think it would be abused too easily.

Meh, there's really no reason to complain about markup and there are some intrinsically bad things for the seller about having MU that's too high in that when people see a thread that's been bumped 15 times without anyone else responding to it, they're likely to not buy even if they otherwise might have thought it was a good deal, so that really heavily incentivizes sellers to reexamine their markups and lower them unilaterally