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WSOP Europe, PLO 550, tough ICM spot (or not?) WSOP Europe, PLO 550, tough ICM spot (or not?)
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WSOP Europe, PLO 550, tough ICM spot (or not?)

11-24-2021 , 06:54 AM
5 handed final table
Blinds 80K/160K (with 160K BB ante)

Hero and two others have 10, 10.5 and 11 BB
2 others over 40Bb

Chipleader opens 90% (to my right),
This Hand he folds, I find AK55 ds,
OR pot to 620 (1 Mio behind) in CO,
Button now ships allin, SB and BB fold.

Now, it’s clear he has aces and I’m way behind.
Next hand the blinds go up to 100/200K, that means,
If I fold now, I’m left with 1 mio having to pay 400K next hand, basically forced to play that hand.

So, I put it in … correct? Wrong? Big/small mistake?
Talked to a few guys here who are way better in tournaments than I am, and got like 50/50 opinions …

Thx for your thoughts.
11-24-2021 , 10:45 AM
Your hand is not great AK and 55 are hands individually in holdem, but you can only make 2 straight and small sets.

You cannot open 4xBB or 10xBB and fold. You are getting almost 3-1 pot odds and are about 2-1 against aces. You are about 47% against generic kings or a top 10% hand, but probably somewhat worse than that against the hands he would repot. You do block aces and kings.

It might be possible to open small or limp (I do not like either with this hand, which does not play well postflop), but once you pot it, you cannot fold anything.
11-24-2021 , 10:52 AM
I agree with 2, you can't raise fold this (not many hands raise/fold for an all in preflop). It is combined ICM suicide, but you have to shrug call here.

I have only played a little tournament PLO, but I know this is a problem with the game; you are going to be priced in too easily with anything you raise at these stack depths.
11-24-2021 , 11:23 AM
Thx, now I feel somewhat better (not having made a big blunder ;-))

Thing with raising smaller was, the table dynamics was, that the 2 big stacks were calling any small raises (with the ante on top getting very good odds to do that), so to have a chance to get it through it was either pot or nothing.
11-24-2021 , 11:25 AM
Any argument to be made for simply folding pre in this spot btw?
11-24-2021 , 11:40 AM
Folding seems far too nitty. We have 2 flush draws, two big cards and a pair. This is quite a good hand against a lot of mediocre hands. It is even 47% vs a top 10 range (I guess this makes it close to a top ten hand). This feels roughly equivalent to open folding something like KJ in the cutoff, 5 handed. Perhaps that is a bad analogy, but I think you get the idea.
11-24-2021 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3for3poker WSOP Europe, PLO 550, tough ICM spot (or not?)
Folding seems far too nitty. We have 2 flush draws, two big cards and a pair. This is quite a good hand against a lot of mediocre hands. It is even 47% vs a top 10 range (I guess this makes it close to a top ten hand). This feels roughly equivalent to open folding something like KJ in the cutoff, 5 handed. Perhaps that is a bad analogy, but I think you get the idea.
Obv I agree with this 100%, otherwise would have folded.
Just wanted to see if there are other view points on this (because of ICM etc)
11-24-2021 , 12:13 PM
`The hand blocks AA and KK fairly strongly, which is really important, and it plays well allin HU. I guess it is fine to pot with here, but it does not play well postflop.
11-24-2021 , 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuceblocker WSOP Europe, PLO 550, tough ICM spot (or not?)
`The hand blocks AA and KK fairly strongly, which is really important, and it plays well allin HU. I guess it is fine to pot with here, but it does not play well postflop.
I've only played a little PLO, but it seems at an SPR, this hand will often flop enough equity for us to get it in easily.

Any 2 pair plus, or flush draw seems fine, even top pair on a dry board is probably good enough.

As for the ICM, you need to be good about 36.3% of the time, so it seems you are priced in against AA.
11-24-2021 , 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerbros_Player WSOP Europe, PLO 550, tough ICM spot (or not?)
Thx, now I feel somewhat better (not having made a big blunder ;-))

Thing with raising smaller was, the table dynamics was, that the 2 big stacks were calling any small raises (with the ante on top getting very good odds to do that), so to have a chance to get it through it was either pot or nothing.
Itís fine if they call because our hand is fairly easy to play post flop.

If we hit top pair, a 5, or a flush draw, we go with it.

Iím also in the raise 2.2x camp. If we get jammed on by a shorty we can fold since itís AA or KK like always.

As played, you just have to go with it. The other player can have good kings instead of aces.
11-24-2021 , 10:03 PM
Should one use two different raise sizes in PLO (general question) and at this stack depth? A 2.2 raise when there is a BB ante prices the BB in with almost anything. In this spot, getting the raise through can be huge; it might put is in a spot where we can ladder to 3d; getting called and missing the flop will put us in last place, and in a tough ICM spot to boot.
11-24-2021 , 11:20 PM
I understand what you’re saying, but they’re mathematically priced in even at a PSB, and I think the big stacks won’t be deterred by a psb anymore than a 2.2x. They’ll be playing their hand if it’s good enough regardless.

You might be right about the smaller stacks, which would probably fold to a PSB, but like I said in my other post I think this hand plays pretty easily post flop, so I don’t mind a caller, I just don’t want to get 3! and be forced to play a dominated hand

Edit: I see you asked a question, sorry misread. When stacks get really shallow in PLO my sizing is the same as it is in NL. In cash games where we’re 100bbs deep I always open pot.
11-24-2021 , 11:36 PM
Personally, I would use multiple sizes, but just pot this hand, because it has great blockers and plays well allin, but not so well to a flop. There are different ways to play it though. However, you cannot pot it and fold to a 3!
11-25-2021 , 12:18 AM
There is a little problem with 2 sizings, as you are probably going to want to pot your strong hands, including AA/KK. So it might seem likely you are folding the smaller raises to a 3!
11-25-2021 , 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuceblocker WSOP Europe, PLO 550, tough ICM spot (or not?)
There is a little problem with 2 sizings, as you are probably going to want to pot your strong hands, including AA/KK. So it might seem likely you are folding the smaller raises to a 3!
Yea you canít do that (use different sizings) unless youíre at like 10bbs and have an SPR of 1 on the flop. Even at 20bbs Iíd use 2.2 w AAxx
11-25-2021 , 02:29 AM
Lots of really good input, thx guys.

I especially like the thought of going with 2.2 raise size, because the big stack plays his hand regardless of my sizing (when it's good enough), but it gives me more flexibility when a short stack pushes all in, i can fold and save chips (compared to full pot open).

Another somewhat interesting spot actually happened in the very first hand of the final table:

2 big stacks, one with 4, one with 3.8 mio, i have 1,5, the others have 1.4, 1, 0.8 and 0.7 ...so i'm in the middle of the pack with shorties behind me (ICM considerations)
Now, I'm in BB, big stack 1 limps in late position, big stack 2 fills up from the SB, i have bad aces (AAJ3, 3 clubs)

Do you ever raise here?
I decided not to, play the hand somewhat disguised, also when i raise i can only make it 280 (blinds 40/80K), and big stack 1 doesn't limp in late pos to then fold to a raise, so then i'm playing oop against Big stack with my hand basically face up ... not a spot i wanna be in.
One guy i respect a lot (very good tourney player from Italy) told me later, he would raise here 100%, saying you have aces (good enough Aces, one suit), and you don't get that many opportunities to chip up, play bigger pots with a good hand, so regardless of position or ICM or whatever, he raises here. I completely disagree, so like to have thoughts on this too. Thx.

      
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