Another hand that I was thinking about and since my last hand was well received I thought I would post another hand.

We are newer to the table. We have been at the table for 2 hours. The table seems to be a mix of older conservative players and a few young Euros. There have been a few 3 bets and a few 4 bets. Not sure of our image but we have been building our stack nicely. We cover the next largest stack at the table by a mile. The closest stack is probably 1.3M with a lot of stacks in the 700 - 1M range.

The villain is a younger European player. We haven't see him do much. There was one hand that he 3 bet and got 4 bet and he called. The other player bet the flop and he called. Checked the turn and folded to the Euro's small river bet on a low disconnected board.

Hero has 2.2M
Villain 850K

Blinds are 6k/12k w/ 12K ante we are 9 handed.


Preflop: We are BB with Q Q
Villain UTG+1 raises to 25K, Button calls, Hero raises to 120K, Villain raises to 285K, Button folds, hero?

I think you call and react post flop. The sizing by villian is a little worrisome honestly. 285 over 120 seems like pure value but think you gotta call as when I looked at preflop+ ranges, can include some A4/A5s , ak, AQo. Obv hero can be squeezing here against a button flat that is probably super weak so hero can be a little light here in this spot if he thinks utg+1 can pitch when heÂ’s opening light. Think you gotta play streets here as QQ is too strong to fold. Postflop, not really sure how you proceed correctly?

Think folding would be much easier in this spot if utg+1 was an OMC. Young euro kid? Going to be wide enough here where we wanna play streets. Villian has 1/3rd of stack in also. He can easily have Ak in this spot with a plan to pile most flops with a PSB behind.

Villian has like 1.33 SPR. Think we just stack off post on good flops where we have an overpair and go sigh bad luck if he has AA or KK.

Btw 2.2mill at 12k bb in the main? Nice run. That’s a gigantic stack for that stage of the tournament.

Your sizing pf is really bad.

And it’s not “bad” luck when you run into aa/kk when his range in this spot is aa/kk/ak only

I'm folding here. Villain's bet is over 33% of his stack so Villain is never folding and this is the wrong price to set mine.

With AK villain will sometimes call your 3 bet in position. With KK/AA Villain is always raising. And with PP <=JJ villain is going to likely call.

There aren't going to be any good flops and if villain is really smart they will bet about 180k on any flop to induce another call (which would happen when no A or K shows up).

edit: Also I agree that the 3-bet is for too much. I would go 90k to 100k. But I would expect the 4-bet to be about the same anyway.

You realize good players will have hands they 4bet fold? Bb can be 3betting here as a steal if it is ever semi light which utg can open very wide utg- J9suited, Q9suited, A2+ suited, etc can all be opens utg and these hands can fold to a 3 bet. Also good players can have a few hands they 4bet fold in these spots such as A4/A5 suited. Idk I think it’s kinda comical to say villian who is a young euro can only have kk+ here but ok think that. Maybe they can. Maybe it’s a better play to fold and play a low variance style? Idk

Also how is the sizing pre bad? 120k over 25k open and flat seems standard to me. Idk how you could say that’s bad. Maybe go to 100k as button is super light but idk 120k seems perfectly fine to me.

Yea I think the 3bet size is fine, wondering what other sizing would’ve been better? I guess you could go a little bigger but 10bbs over a 2bb open seems completely standard to me.

While players are now 4betting suited A2-5 frequently (a bit too much imo), I think you can safely discount those holdings given the situation. The OR was UTG+1, not LP, so the OP is probably gonna have a much tighter 3betting range. The 4bet is pretty small and BB has the chips so the villain probably isn’t screwing around with a light 4bet. You can probably even discount AK from the villain’s holdings since there’s a good chance he just jams 70bbs with that preflop (or just calls).

I did read the positions wrong here must
Have been drunk that sizing is good
you way overestimate the bluffs he’s finding utg +1 vs bb 3b
Bb range for 3b should be very very narrow already.
Utg + 1 range is already tight to start with and you don’t even know if he’s opening all the a4 stuff from utg +1 and assuming just cuz he’s a euro that he’s got a bunch of bluffs here isn’t a good idea. Good players are going to have solid ranges here and his range for 4b is aa/kk/ak
But you can’t fold for 185k more anyway when he has a very high maybe 100% frequency of ako which is a lot of combos.

I missed the flat. 3-bet sizing pre-flop is fine.

So I did end up folding. Later on the other player said he had AA. I just wasn't sure if I was being too nitty in this spot. I mean, it does seem like he has to have AA or KK right? He said he would normally just flat in this spot but with the other player behind he didn't want to risk playing AA 3 handed.

Nice fold. Would’ve been a tough one for me to make.

Easy Flat pre, order a double vodka on ice, enjoy your equity FFS?

For you to be sitting there, yes there is a correct way to play out of position, just c the flop IMO, save your chips for the post-flop game.

We’re not getting the right price to set mine if we put him on AA or KK only. I suppose the flop could come 910J and w we MIGHR get a free turn, but that’s being very optimistic.

If the flop comes Jack high or lower we’ll have a tough time getting away from our hand. Plenty of times I ‘knew’ my opponent had a better pocket pair then me but I called anyway looking to flop a set and I end up calling it off when I have an overpair only to be shown the goods I knew he had.

BTN call makes UTG1 4! range much wider and significantly reduces UTG1 4! AA combos. He's far more likely to jam AK and KK too. Once he structure 4! to 285K I'd rip QQ into his guts and be quite surprised if he made the call.

One of the worst strat posts I’ve seen around these forums in a minute.

this is never constructive at least say why and explain

like this:

How does the button call make the 4b range wider? This whole post makes no sense at all

So you’re saying he’s more likely to shove ak and kk. But then 285k looks weaker? Any decent player is making the 4b size with his whole 4b range at this stack depth.

Also how does the button flat affect the amount of aa combos in the 4b range?

This whole post is just a word salad of nonsense tbh

Do you have PIO and close to perfect pre-flop ranges? I do. And it's not hard to compare charts for UTG1-BTNcall-BB3bet-UTG1 response to UTG1-BB3bet-UTG1 response.

Now, I'm just going to ask you nicely once to respond to my posts with a little more courtesy. I'm sure I'll make mistakes here and there in interpreting results and would like to leave a little room open for error and humility. But if you're going to say I'm wrong, then from now on you may be asked to prove it.

The entire reason I fought to get MSMTT-HSMTT retained as a separate forum was to eventually get to the point where the majority (or at least a lot) of the posts were based on solid solver work and great pre-flop ranges. I won't be disclosing exactly how I've set up my lab, but it's pretty awesome, and I'm open to start Skyping with other regs I know in here that have the gear and have done the work, and in particular can help me improve what I'm doing and how I'm interpreting results

would love to see MSMTT-HSMTT discussing blockers, buckets and equity realisation, and everything else that’s incredible about modern mtt poker

So hi again everyone, I look forward to getting busy on here like the good old days.

-OS

LFG Old Silver. Or, should I say, Hiho Silver!?

Yes I have the expensive pio that solves optimal pf ****. But your post still makes no sense. If anything the extra player in the pot makes the 4b range stronger, not weaker because it’s a lot harder for him to get folds from both players ranges when he wants to take aj a5s /whatever and start 4b bluffing.
The amount off aa combos in the 4b range isn’t reduced in any way based on a flatter ip. If you want to get into card removal concepts then the button flatting range doesn’t really have much ax because a big % of the flatting player ip ace combos get 3b.
And that’s cool that you fought for this forum but it doesn’t make your post any more logical. If I’m way off on this (pretty sure I’m not) then I’ll love to hear why tho.

Also on topics of blockers qq is doing a rly bad job with the unblocking affects here vs the already narrow range we are up against.

I think the reasoning is that the flat call sets up a good squeeze situation for BB, and if original raiser recognizes that, then they have reason to think a light 4-bet will work more often than usual.

I don't see the caller making much difference unless they're someone who specifically flats to trap here.

Why are you so aggro?

The whole point of having solved ranges preflop is to look at the output and say, hey that’s really quite unexpected, how can we interpret this?

What I’ve stated isn’t my opinion. It’s equilibrium.

I’ve described exactly what I’m seeing in the solved charts. I’ll check the density of Ax in BTN flat and the removal effects of QQ when I get a chance, but I don’t recall seeing a ton of Qx in the 4bet range with button call (except QQ) and none at all without button.

I also suspect that AA is a pure flat in BTN range and that will increase the frequency of BTN 4! if UTG1 flats then BB 3! so if UTG1 holds AA it becomes a good spot to trap. But again I’ll need to check it.

If we can establish that a button flat does interesting things to a 4! range in response to squeeze then that’s somewhat interesting and a useful takeaway from solving this spot.

What part of your post was having anything to do with equilibrium? I’m just trying to make sense of what you said.
Equilibrium isn’t really a thing of concern here when ranges are this small
If you want to talk about optimal/solved pf ranges that’s fine but how on earth are you going to say that aa is a pure flat on the button thats just nonsense man.

Utg is opening a tight strong uncapped range. Button flats a pretty capped but strong range.
The button is allowed to peel aa at a low frequency but pure? Cmon you can’t be serious button range is like mostly 66-99. Some suited broadways and tt/jj that rolls a call and not 3b.
Bb is supposed to 3b here super narrow and that range is like at the bottom / p10s mixes jj mostly 3bs/ qq always 3bs and so does ak.

So when you get 4b it’s like ak/kk+ almost always
When I say qq has bad blocking affects for getting it in ranges it’s not because there’s a lot of qx in 4b range It’s because of the hands it unblocks.

I just got aggro cuz I couldn’t believe what I was reading but I’ll leave you guys to it. Gl

Button flat range is far from just 66-99 and includes a ton of Axs Kxs, plus suited broadways. There's 70 odd 3! combos and 225 odd flat combos. I thought BTN may have all AA here, but turns out he has none. I said I'd check charts again when I had a chance.

UTG opens 16% and the composition of UTG 4! range is super interesting. 32 combos 4! after a button call compared to only 14 combos without that call. KK AKo and QQ are actually jammed at a high frequency followed a button call, but there's no jamming range if button doesn't call. AA strat changes from pure 4! (no button raise) to mostly flat (with button call).

Not sure how you put your ranges together, but you seriously need to lose the aggro and be more open to discussion. You've raised an interesting point regarding the unblocking effects here which is worth looking at, but there's just flat out errors in some of the other things you've said.