Pacific Poker - 700/1400 Ante 175 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3 : http://www.holdemmanager.com

UTG: 51,994 (37.1 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 47,964 (34.3 bb)
MP: 53,154 (38 bb)
MP+1: 42,153 (30.1 bb)
MP+2: 73,476 (52.5 bb)
CO: 36,587 (26.1 bb)
BTN: 85,284 (60.9 bb)
SB: 34,263 (24.5 bb)
BB: 85,099 (60.8 bb)

9 players post ante of 175, SB posts 700, BB posts 1,400

Pre Flop: (pot: 3,675) Hero has Th Tc
fold, Hero raises to 3,220, 5 folds, SB calls 2,520, fold

Flop: (9,415, 2 players) 4h 8d Qd
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (9,415, 2 players) 8c
SB checks, Hero bets 2,353, SB raises to 8,235, Hero calls 5,882

River: (25,885, 2 players) 9h
SB bets 22,633 and is all-in,

Hero?

Not sure how much ICM should have factors into it, roughly 95 players were left, 72 made the money, i had a mid stack going into the hand

I would usually c-bet that flop versus SB. You should have range advantage on that flop, and can use protection as lots of turn cards make life tough.

As played, V should not have that many 8s in his range, and if you peg V as aggressive he might be x/r with diamond draw or straight draw (although you heavily block most straight draws). Once, you call turn, you are putting V on draw or move. JT got there, but as said, you block that heavily. Given this logic, I guess you sigh call.

What’s the buy in OP?

Any reads on SB and his pre flatting range?

I don’t have an SB flat range against a single RFI but generally expect AQ KQ QJs type hands plus mid pp when others do it - v player dependent tho

I think a mixed strat is fine, sometimes 1/3 cbet sometimes check

On turn, we can expect V to have such a high cr frequency that I’m fine with a turn check back, then calling off any small stab otr.

Just one of those hands where I want to play a small pot with decent sdv against an unknown range approaching bubble.

As played fold to cr and fold now.

Flop - C-Bet 1/3 pot 5/6, check 1/6.

AP you can just fold to the turn x/r there are only 4 good rivers and everything else sucks when he shoves.

River - we shouldn't be here. Fold

Easy turn check betting looks like a blunder, you don’t get to Cbet a bunch vs the sb call range (which is a lot stronger than the bb peek range)
you can mix in some bets w this hand at a low frequency on the flop but you’ll done fine just pure check.
Anyways the turn bet on the 8 idk if that ty makes it in there is just check turn and go for one street otr

No

No to Which part? If I open a hand from early position and am called only out of the blinds, I will C-bet most flops. And as played I too will be folding to the C/R on the turn (or on the river if I were to misclick or something and call the C/R by mistake.)

Vs the bb the 1/3 size otf gets used for value/protection
Vs the sb range again which is a lot stronger and has plenty enough a qx and 8x here you can’t just close your eyes and bet 1/3 every time
The 5/6 thing ott he said is just plainly wrong and bad

Hey dude, thanks for the opinion. Just a quick question, do we have a range advantage here? I checked specifically because I thought we didn't have that big a range advantage and, running it through equilab, we only have 52% (that being said flatting ranges from the SB are variable af so i understand that it can be quite variable), but it does feel as though the sb can have quite a few Qs in his range. Also correct me if im wrong but theres only really one hand that needs a lot of protection and thats KJ, everything else has either a better hand, or only 1 over card?

Sadly didnt have any significant stats on the guy, but i did call, and he turned over KK which..... hurts haha

Buyin $22, no notes on him (new pc so all my info had gone).

Is this because V has a bunch of 8's? Cos im not sure why he'd have many turn check raises, am i missing smth?

Thanks for the opinion, I called cos i got hella blockers/unblockers and he had KK -_-

Hi, thanks for the opinion. Can I ask why the 8 betting is a blunder? Just run the numbers on Equilab and the equities dont really change that much, which makes sense because I dont think either of us have many 8's in our range, so whats wrong with it?

SB likely has a lot of Qs, but you have all the big ones too. SB almost certainly has a lot less AA/KK than you, so that's why I said you have range advantage ... of course, he did end up flatting KK here. As I said once you call the turn x/r, you might as well call river, since there's no way you should be calling unless you put a lot of draws in his range (I check turn, and fold after the x/r).

Tbh I don’t know the mechanic exactly on the 8x I haven’t ran this exact scenario. But when I used to use the dto app I practiced this lp vs small blind and was surprised that there’s just not a lot of betting volume from the ip player with marginal hands like this you end up checking a lot till the river

I think you have to give SB credit here. Unless you know something about them, how often would a player c/r with air here and follow it through on the river? I think best case scenario you are looking at JTs, T9s, or 67s, 65s (if SB is capable). Having a 8 is perfectly with in the SB range.

I don't think you did anything wrong here. I would bet this flop some % of the time but not always with your holding (maybe a PP?). I guess the problem is on the turn, what do you get called with that you are beating? But OTH, you don't want to give them a free chance to hit something.

The turn c/r is more likely value than a bluff. Though I think SB's line is unusual either way.

When you check the flop your range is likely reduced to misses and PP's (because we want to charge flush draws and gutters when we have a Q or overpair).

At this point you win when you bet the turn when SB has nothing and has given up. If I bet the turn it is always going to be bet/fold. If I'm not going to fold to a c/r then I'd rather a turn check which sets up a good spot to bluff catch on the river.

As played I don't hate the turn bet because SB looks like he may very well fold to it (and may have one or two overs to our TT). Or SB may call with hands like 99/55-77/22-33.

I'd say that's important to improve the context of the hand to foster clarity on the discussion, did you have infos? How does his sharkscoop looks like? Any interesting SD from the vilan, etc.

So here's my 10 cents on the situation, as we don't know vilan player profile let's assume it's a reg with passive tendencies as this profile represents the largest chunk of the player pool (VPIP/PFR 22-18/14).
The purpose of this analysis is to build some heuristics wich allow us to play better IP vs SB Q-MID-LOW situations, so here we go.

Let's assum vilan has a range that goes on this direction (which is the gto), in reality I belive they are a bit tighther but 14.7% is a good starting point
https://prnt.sc/13gnbhc

For hero let's take a simple UTG+1 range from some one those chart you can easily find online, which looks like this, as I don't know you I'd say you could be playing a tighter range than as population play tighter from EP which I belive have some merits.
https://prnt.sc/13gneoc

I used a fairly complex tree to build this analysis but we are interested on what can I learn from it not trying to implent this crazy strategy in game.

So here we go, OOP don't have leads as expect and our IP range play this situation mostly betting, checking only 19% wich is a considerably amout.
https://prnt.sc/13gniwv

The question is what allow us to have this high frequencie cbet strategie, let's take a look at the equities
IP
https://prnt.sc/13gnl18
OOP
https://prnt.sc/13gnlty

So as we can see vilan has a ton of equity in very hard to defend hands like AJ, A9, 22-77, which are hands that are very hard to play OOP vs UTG+1 range, at the same time he has a lot of auto folds (34.52%) wich make our hands like J9, T9, KT and similiar make to fold better (Axs, pockets), so in THEORY we can cbet very agressive on this situation but having in mind that villan in THEORY will have almost 20% of XR against our cbet strategie. So let's take a look at the cbet and reaction from villan.
IP strategy
https://prnt.sc/13gntbd
OOP strategy vs cbet small
https://prnt.sc/13gnumd

So as you can see he in THEORY needs to start raising very tricky hands like 54s, 65s, 76s, T9s, KJo, J9s all this suited hands with no flush draw. So what happen if villans doesn't raise this hands against us? We can just cbet out entire range, as he's allowing us to cbet our hands with and realize our equity till the river since we can realize our equity in full.

So the take aways that I'd learn from here is that, we can cbet everything, we expect him to raise quite often but the reality is that they will play passive. TT make in specific extract value from worse (PP's, 8xs and draws) at the same time fold hands that have roughly 25% equity against us which is nice. The question that I let for you to answer is can we have a 2 size strategie here? Would it make sense? How would you play this TT on the turn if you cbet it? This is the second hand that I see you checking in a clear cbeting situation here on the forum. Let me know your thoughts Ibelive you can gain a lot of EV studying IP vs OOP SRP.
Cheers.

Do you mean in general or for <25BB?

In general. i don’t flat a single RFI unless I’m BTN or BB, and possibly CO if we’re 8+ handed.

It’s very much a cash game thing but it translates well to most live mtt spots - and I can’t be assed worrying about those few exceptions.

If people catch on to that, they're likely going to widen their 4-bet range against you. I think this can result in you having to muck a lot of hands that realize tons of their equity in position, especially when very deep stacked (e.g., suited connectors).

Or are you only VPIPing hands your willing to play against a 4-bet (either 5-bet or call)?

Ofc I have a 3!/f range. I 3! a GTO range so I’m delighted if they widen to a non optimal 4! range. Thnx for the free chips.

But a 3! GTO range has a flat range against an RFI associated with it. So if you never flat an RFI, your 3! range is not GTO.

Nice post. I suck lol

yes, a GTO live SB live mtt flat range against UTG1 includes ATs-AJs KQs KJs QJs JJ-55, and a 3! range surrounding that like QQ+ AQ+ KTs QTs 76-89s A3s-A5s.

by using a cash online 3! (or fold) range of around 77+ JTs+ AQo+ i'm effectively exploiting, and I take your point that a very astute opponent could widen their 4! range to counterexploit. they 'never' do, but they could.

but this is live $500 mtt land and the live player pop over-completes the BB creating a **** sandwich post for SB. if we 3! our entire SB response, then most $500 live mtters play poorly against 3!/cbet sequences. they also gets scared when old guys 3! the first few times.

I can see that from the SB in live play. But your original comment was

I do think if that's the case, you are much more likely for someone to develop a counterexploit strategy.