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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 12-11-2017, 05:39 PM   #1
user12345
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two (semi-)weird 5k spots

Villain was a Latvian guy, was recently moved I recall, guess some live pro based on some weird plays he made up to this point but no SDs, not much info. 3bet twice.

partypoker - 0/0 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 3,946,629
BTN: 1,333,579
SB: 1,311,094
BB: 2,169,954 (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 17)
Hero (UTG): 804,986
UTG+1: 1,117,483
MP: 946,532
MP+1: 667,081

8 players post ante of 2,250, SB posts SB 9,000, BB posts BB 18,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 45,000) Hero has T Q

Hero raises to 40,500, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 22,500

Flop: (108,000, 2 players) Q 2 K
BB checks, Hero bets 34,580, BB raises to 140,000, Hero calls 105,420

Turn: (388,000, 2 players) 6
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (388,000, 2 players) 4
BB bets 327,204

flop is a mix.
re-open turn anyone? 620k eff.
river?



#2
same Lativian guy.
Limped SB twice, 4x now.

partypoker - 0/0 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 6,174,958
CO: 866,904
BTN: 956,250
SB: 2,712,661 (VPIP: 33.80, PFR: 22.54, 3Bet Preflop: 18.75, Hands: 71)
Hero (BB): 1,298,903
UTG: 1,427,419
UTG+1: 2,575,767
MP: 880,412

8 players post ante of 3,125, SB posts SB 12,500, Hero posts BB 25,000

Pre Flop: (pot: 62,500) Hero has J 7

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 100,000, Hero calls 75,000

Flop: (225,000, 2 players) 5 4 J
SB bets 50,000, Hero raises to 168,400, SB raises to 2,609,536 and is all-in

bet small fast, then tanked really long (went into time-bank) and guess what.......

Guess he would have 44,55 rarely, but I would expect that small bet to be mostly protection play w/ AJ-AK, some pairs.
We didn`t have any dynamics which could incentivized him to induce w/ TPs on that texture so I would be surprised to see better Jx and we could say having 7 sucks, but I also don`t expect him to play 7x like that.
He had big flop sizing in his arsenal.

Nothing makes sense for huge overshove (w/o any kind of dynamics) and its such a tempting spots to call it off but you also start thinking I`ll have tons of better spots vs this guy.
Now I think if A3s-A2s could be part of his 3bet jam range (maybe even TT,99) it should have been a call vs weirdo.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:12 PM   #2
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

Is this FT?

Given his stats over a v small sample, its prob safe to assume he never has KK, QQ (+blocker)
Not betting turn
Otr, blocking no spades, leaves 22, and a discounted KQ.
A2dd, A4cc seem like his only cred bluffs wo clicking buttons.
Want to fold vs his otr sizing, but thinks its real close, and Im such a station otr i prob convince myself to call.

Would click call in 2. Do we think he 3b shoves QQ+?
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:58 PM   #3
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

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Is this FT?
I wish it was )
1st level is 5k/10k with 1mln starting stack.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:26 PM   #4
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

#1:
Pre is fine. Think we want to be checking flop back a lot. If we are betting and get c/r on this texture I guess we have to call with a reasonable blocker to nut hands and backdoor clubs, but I'm not happy about it.

As played I think we can fold river as we have one of the worst hands we should have here, only calling if you think villain is seriously prone to overbluffing.

#2:
Not sure I understand raising flop unless you think you're folding a lot of equity vs. this particular villain.

As played, if we're going to call with top pair, we probably shouldn't call with a card that blocks one of his most likely bluff combos. I guess calling with J7hh would be worse. We obviously need to call with some Jx combos but I don't think we need to call with all of them and eliminating the ones that block bluffs might make some sense. (which means, yeah, we might be folding AJ here sometimes)
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:50 AM   #5
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgiro View Post
#1:
Pre is fine. Think we want to be checking flop back a lot. If we are betting and get c/r on this texture I guess we have to call with a reasonable blocker to nut hands and backdoor clubs, but I'm not happy about it.

As played I think we can fold river as we have one of the worst hands we should have here, only calling if you think villain is seriously prone to overbluffing.
Agree with this, one of the weakest hands we can have als blocking some bluffs but not blocking any spades.

Hand 2: We can only raise if we plan on calling it off, you can never construct your range in a way that you have to bet/fold toppair + all the backdoors.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:20 AM   #6
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

I oversimplify flop and just don't bet mid pairs because getting x/r sucked. I know solvers bla bla blah will probably say bet etc.

You mention you're playing a mix with Qx on the flop then it would seem logical to bet when the BB can have a reasonable amount of combos of bottom pair. KQ2 isn't going to give BB a lot of bottom pair compared with KQ8 for instance.

Hand 2 looks like it should just be a call, rather than a raise. You're going to have to find a lot of hands to call vs such a small bet. Small flop bets followed by a large turn bet is becoming a more frequent play and J7 will make a nice hand to deal with such a strategy vs SB.
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Old 12-12-2017, 11:46 AM   #7
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

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I oversimplify flop and just don't bet mid pairs because getting x/r sucked. I know solvers bla bla blah will probably say bet etc.
+1000000

I think in both of these hands, calling would've made these hands SO much easier to play.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:05 PM   #8
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

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Originally Posted by crimsonchin View Post
Hand 2: We can only raise if we plan on calling it off, you can never construct your range in a way that you have to bet/fold toppair + all the backdoors.
It's probably close, but we should have plenty of other Jsxs and Jcxc combos here, and I don't believe we have to call every single J. And having J7 specifically blocks 76 which is a hand I want my opponent to have. To this specific bet size I think we can fold more TP than we would otherwise.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:10 PM   #9
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

People that are checking otf in hand 1. What does your utg range look like, and what % are you betting then. I would opt for even smaller sizing otf (<1/3), and betting close to 100% of our opening range on this flop, vs this villain.
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Old 12-12-2017, 12:22 PM   #10
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

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Originally Posted by AmpeFund View Post
People that are checking otf in hand 1. What does your utg range look like, and what % are you betting then. I would opt for even smaller sizing otf (<1/3), and betting close to 100% of our opening range on this flop, vs this villain.
I think you can take a couple of different lines here and be fine. I do like the idea of checking back a fair amount here and only betting strong Kx+ plus draws and air, leaving some weaker Kx, Qx and some middle pairs as checks (along with the occasional trapped set) because those hands often won't get three streets of value.

I also think betting small with your entire range has some merit, but it puts us in awkward spots when we get check raised with middle pair or third pair where we have to make really gross decisions on later streets. Checking back those hands makes the turn and river easier to play.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:31 PM   #11
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

Please guys dont turn this thread into discussion of flop cbet strategy utg-bb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregz41
I oversimplify flop and just don't bet mid pairs because getting x/r sucked. I know solvers bla bla blah will probably say bet etc.
hey, people also oversimplify their bb defence strat and don`t c/r enough which even more incentivize you to cbet range small.
Its fine to check back some mid pairs, its just people defend more 2x these days, not giving away free card to PPs is also valuable and our distribution on the top end is so much stronger.
Also if we cbet TP+ only or close to it then we should shift to larger size but we arent even deep enough to apply this strategy (oe lets say stacks are awkward for this)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgiro
As played I think we can fold river as we have one of the worst hands we should have here, only calling if you think villain is seriously prone to overbluffing.
It was my final thought on river spot as well but I struggle to build his value range which would have made sense.

Surprised people treat that flop bet in hand2 as a std one.
Big part of his large raise pre missed that flop so I thought its plausable to treat it as a block-bet and as I said we didn`t have dynamics for him to induce. (but I concede he could intentionally did it for w/e reason)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgiro
We obviously need to call with some Jx combos but I don't think we need to call with all of them and eliminating the ones that block bluffs might make some sense. (which means, yeah, we might be folding AJ here sometimes)
yes I agree its not best R/C combo.
But how folding AJ makes sense? A3, A2 could be discounted pre and its assumptive to state he would bluff jam them w/ reasonable frequency. AJ also do better vs overpairs and block AA and what I think is more important AJ destroys occasional worse Jx which he could jam for value.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:14 PM   #12
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

you still play poker?

h1 is really bizarre, seems he mainly reps some AK/KJ that pot controlled ott. But then why is he choosing 85% size otr?? Sizing definitely looks like something a flush would choose.
I guess it could be some weird AJss, ATss hand that went for xrai ott? QJss type hand small possibility as well.

I just fold these spots in game figuring ppl underbluff with stupid looking lines generally. Also you don't have a king so...it hurts us some


H2 I'm also pretty tempted to call it off..
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:37 PM   #13
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

hand 1- i think x looks better, sure you can mix but with this combo i think the x looks good.... youll want to cbet middle pair more on something like a82 or something where protection is more of a thing. here on kq2 protections not really important and you need to mix in some x's. so i think id be betting more pairs like 2s-7s or so for this small size otf and mixing in checks with hands like jj, qx etc
ott id probably go ahead and put in another 1/3 bet . i dont think v is supposed to x/r much on this texture, so when he x turn i think he range is pretty weak, and i think pio would probably tell us to go ahead and bet with alot of hands in our range, but i could be off with this specific scenario
ON the river i think he c/r some hands like 2x with spades, or like some other combo of backdoors with a little other equity on the flop like maybe j9ss or something. so i think hes value combos should look like mostly backdoor flushes, and you dont block the spade combos. i also think that when you bet ott you get to look at a free showdown since villain might be tempted to go for a xrai otr and you look at a free showdown otr, overall i dont think going for the hero in this spot makes 2 much sense, and i think there are some other blocker effects that make it bad for calling when we block the bd clubs, and also the 10blocker which would be the likely bluffs in this spot.

hand two...i think this is a pretty bad combo for raising otf, you have plenty of other value combos, and you also block some of the villains bluffshoves like 76s/87s with overs and a str8 draw. so i think its a pretty poor choice of blockers for both calling and raising. its also really disasterous to get blown off your equity here by hands like overpairs that would certainly be in the sb 4x range.
So all in all i think hand two is a pretty big butcher job.
gl

Last edited by lolposting2016; 12-12-2017 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:33 PM   #14
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

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Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
hand two...i think this is a pretty bad combo for raising otf, you have plenty of other value combos, and you also block some of the villains bluffshoves like 76s/87s with overs and a str8 draw. so i think its a pretty poor choice of blockers for both calling and raising. its also really disasterous to get blown off your equity here by hands like overpairs that would certainly be in the sb 4x range.
So all in all i think hand two is a pretty big butcher job.
yes its correct things but not that you would expect to get jammed on frequently (especially after block-bet)
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:21 PM   #15
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

and by choice of blockers for calling i mean the shove, not for calling his original bet this hand just seems like a rly simple call and play turns
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:29 PM   #16
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

I think flop raise is std readless against <20% cbet
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Old 12-13-2017, 02:27 AM   #17
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

I guess depending on oops strategy we could see some raising on this board w this combo bc protection mostly I guess but I definitely think it’s mixing and call is probably the higher frequency play.
Oop can be pretty aggro here w his 4x range I think on j54 so it could be a good response to start raising some jx but yea would choose a better combo imo
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Old 12-13-2017, 07:28 PM   #18
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

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yes I agree its not best R/C combo.
But how folding AJ makes sense? A3, A2 could be discounted pre and its assumptive to state he would bluff jam them w/ reasonable frequency. AJ also do better vs overpairs and block AA and what I think is more important AJ destroys occasional worse Jx which he could jam for value.
I think in terms of calls, KJ and QJ might be better than AJ simply because those hands block value and don't block bluffs. (if villain might jam QJ for value, then it's plausible villain also jams stuff like A2-A5 as a bluff sometimes)

Tbh, AJ is probably mostly a call, but it wouldn't be the top of my Jx call off range and really depends on how much you're willing to give up here.
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Old 12-13-2017, 08:49 PM   #19
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

you're over-weighting significance of blockers.
Where population has at least some frequency of jamming Jx there, blocking/unblocking effects of hero's kicker become of minor importance compared to strength of kicker.

And it's not really true anyway that K/Q are better holdings to have, bc one of V's main bluffing hands here is KQ, which is very reasonable relative to other combos as a bluff shove where EV of calling flop raise would be questionable.
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Old 12-13-2017, 10:11 PM   #20
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

#1: flop I would cb, we should be betting textures where we have range adv regardless of our holdings imo, sizing is good although I would fold to x/r when we are readless as our periceved range should smash that flop rasing utg, which makes his x/r pretty strong. I think few opponents are raising worse like JT,AT,AJ. We can fold and be fine with it knowing we can have all the nutted hands in our range that can easily continue otf like top 2, sets and overpairs.

#2: Im folding this hand pre vs 4x vs readless opponents. While we are suited, we have bad kicker problems and its not very connected. As played flop is an excellent spot to flat and re-evaluate the turn, dont see many worse hands in opponents range that is calling our flop raise except 67,78 but we block those. As mentioned its a disaster getting blown off our equity when we have 5 outs and bdfd/sd. Lets keep his range as wide as possible and flat flop and call most turns.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:59 AM   #21
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

assuming he:
- raises most PPs pre (JJ- but mainly 99-77), some AKo-ATo(mostly AKo,AQo) and few A5s-A2s, low SCs(and SGs);
-cbet most A-highs, pairs (except weak 5x,4x)

we should be raising all Jx to this sizing (like in LHE)

when he bet/3bet jams AJ+(incl.all sets), A3s,A2s; few AKo, AQo
we should R/C AJ and JTs-J7s(where J7s+bd is highest EV R/C) and R/fold KJ,QJ(which are dominated by AJ).

J7s is like 0.5bb better stackoff bc of additional BD straight draws (where TP R/C EV lies within +0.2bb - +2bb).

If we remove AJ out of his range our KJ and QJ become calls but still like 1bb behind J7s EV wise. Unless he bluff jam AK,AQ too much then all blocker effects and kickers become less relevant and all our TPs become super decent R/C hands (~ +20bb EV).
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Old 12-16-2017, 06:00 PM   #22
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Re: two (semi-)weird 5k spots

Did you run this in pio?
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