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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 11-08-2018, 02:50 PM   #1
ImaLouigi
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Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Day 1 of the $375 Deepstack during the Fall Poker Classic @ CP
Blinds: 200/400/200 (big blind ante)
Starting stack: 30K

MP (~40K) raises to 900
Hijack (~25K) calls
Button calls
Hero (~60K) completes from SB with K 9
BB completes

Flop (4,700): A J 9x

Checks to MP who bets 2,700
Hijack calls
Button folds
Hero calls
BB folds

Turn (12,800): 10

Hero & MP check
Hijack bets 2,500
Hero ???
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:48 PM   #2
wynner88888
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

I would call to keep my range wide open and keep MP involved, hoping to be raised by flushes, straights or maybe sets, top pair or two pair.
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:05 PM   #3
lolposting2016
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Raise
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:16 PM   #4
wynner88888
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Raise
If you raise me in this spot then Iím folding my entire range.
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Old 11-08-2018, 07:00 PM   #5
runningouts
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Probably call turn and then lead river pretty big, around 70% pot (regardless of 2 way or 3 way)
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:17 PM   #6
bearer
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Raise. If they want to fold everything that's their problem.
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Old 11-08-2018, 09:51 PM   #7
lolposting2016
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by wynner88888 View Post
If you raise me in this spot then Iím folding my entire range.
lol ok
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:40 AM   #8
user12345
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

I wonder what do we overcall out of Sb to bluff raise block lead with?

Not sure I overcall K8o OOP.
Raising other 8x doesn't seem a great thing to do.
Kh9x seems next one. - hand I'd usually always just call.
Qh9x I think really loves calling ahead of raise.
Not sure what's next best.. 97?

We really don't have bluffs here...
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:40 AM   #9
ImaLouigi
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

I usually raise for value in this spot but I am concerned that any 3/4 to pot size raise is going to fold out MP a majority of the time and this board crushes his open/continue range for 2 pair+ hands.

Plus, the micro bet from the hi-jack looks like a blocker bet that I think he is bet/folding a very, very high % of the time.

I think we have to just call and evaluate our line on the river depending on board texture.
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Old 11-09-2018, 11:49 AM   #10
MOnes
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by wynner88888 View Post
I would call to keep my range wide open and keep MP involved, hoping to be raised by flushes, straights or maybe sets, top pair or two pair.
Agree with calling to keep your range wide and encouraging MP to stick around with hands he believes are good draws. Unlikely to be raised at this point given the action so far especially the wet flop. And if you raise what hands are likely to call you that wouldn't have bet bigger or raised already?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaLouigi View Post
I usually raise for value in this spot but I am concerned that any 3/4 to pot size raise is going to fold out MP a majority of the time and this board crushes his open/continue range for 2 pair+ hands.

Plus, the micro bet from the hi-jack looks like a blocker bet that I think he is bet/folding a very, very high % of the time.

I think we have to just call and evaluate our line on the river depending on board texture.
On the river hope for a non- K,Q or 8 to make a slightly over-pot lead out bet otherwise leading for 75-90% pot seems right (regardless 1 or 2 opponents).
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:22 PM   #11
bearer
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by user12345 View Post
I wonder what do we overcall out of Sb to bluff raise block lead with?

Not sure I overcall K8o OOP.
Raising other 8x doesn't seem a great thing to do.
Kh9x seems next one. - hand I'd usually always just call.
Qh9x I think really loves calling ahead of raise.

Not sure what's next best.. 97?

We really don't have bluffs here...
Call for what? You think 9x is good vs this sizing?

Regardless, if he was good enough to go through this process he likely wouldn't have downbet turn ip.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:30 PM   #12
MOnes
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Notwithstanding the above turn play - you should probably lead/bet the flop a good % of the time given your nut flush draw and pair. Building a pot on the flop with a nut draw into multiple opponents is a good way to accumulate chips and as the big stack you can exert a lot of pressure on later streets even if you miss. When you do hit you can bet representing a wide range on both turn and river depending on run out and texture, while check-calling narrows your range.
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Old 11-09-2018, 03:19 PM   #13
ImaLouigi
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaLouigi View Post
Day 1 of the $375 Deepstack during the Fall Poker Classic @ CP
Blinds: 200/400/200 (big blind ante)
Starting stack: 30K

MP (~40K) raises to 900
Hijack (~25K) calls
Button calls
Hero (~60K) completes from SB with K 9
BB completes

Flop (4,700): A J 9x

Checks to MP who bets 2,700
Hijack calls
Button folds
Hero calls
BB folds

Turn (12,800): 10

Hero & MP check
Hijack bets 2,500
Hero ???
Hero ended up just calling turn. MP folds.

River (17,800): 5

Obviously this is a terrible card for us in terms of extracting value. What is our bet sizing on the river and why? Do we ever check here?

Spoiler:
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:29 PM   #14
jpgiro
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

I lean raising turn vs. Canterbury Park random, most of whom are going to have difficulty folding any 2p+ hand here, especially if we're in the rebuy period.

Against these players I don't think we necessarily have to be particularly balanced in terms of having right % of bluffs but having pair+flush draw type hands that block sets and have additional equity makes some sense to me.

I think if we're trying to get called by sets and straights we have to bet pretty small on the river. If we think villain has a lot of Qhxx or 8hxx (which I'm not sure is the case) then yeah overbet jam is fine. I'm not sure checking makes much sense unless villain has shown ability to bluff at these types of boards in the past.

Last edited by jpgiro; 11-09-2018 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:57 PM   #15
jjpregler
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

I would consider check/shove on the flop after the bet/call action. Effective stack at that point is about 37k with 11k in the pot. A shove would definitely be worth considering.

On the turn, I think you have to raise. His bet is as good as a check. If no one calls then so be it, but I want to set up the opportunity to stack one of them if I can.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:51 PM   #16
wynner88888
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaLouigi View Post
Hero ended up just calling turn. MP folds.

River (17,800): 5

Obviously this is a terrible card for us in terms of extracting value. What is our bet sizing on the river and why? Do we ever check here?

Spoiler:

Unfortunate river. Betting is forcing villain to fold if he hasnít made a decent flush. And if he has made a decent flush then heís probably betting anyway. Iíd lean toward check raising.
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:24 AM   #17
ImaLouigi
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

My thought is that if I make any reasonable value bet on the river, it looks very strong. Folds out everything except probably the queen of hearts exactly.

By over bet shoving, I am trying to induce a hero call. Might be the only way I get called?


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Old Yesterday, 11:02 PM   #18
Gettingood
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

I’m raising turn here for sure. MP checking ott and HJ downbetting makes their ranges seem rather capped to me, so I’m raising somewhat light for value here. This means turning some 9x to bluffs, especially if hero doesn’t defend QTo/KTo pre. Any futher action from MP also defines his range alot so Hero can rather easily adjust accordingly.

We also lose action on many rivers and being oop, it’s harder to get stacks in. I’d probably raise 6-7k and ship river w/ this particular combo. I wouldn’t be too worried about balance in this exact spot tbh b/c villain seems like a fish.
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Old Today, 12:53 PM   #19
jl121
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Re: Turned the nuts OOP facing micro bet

minraise the turn, how can he fold any hand he's barreled to that sizing? Meanwhile, his turn bet is as weak as can be so I don't see him continuing for any sizing besides a minraise.

You're just more likely to bleed some chips from him OTT w/ a tiny (i.e. min) raise than you are via any other sizing or by flatting and hoping he bluffs the river. He never bluffs the river btw, and nor should he--when two villains in a 3-figure buy-in live event go x/c-x/c on [AhJh9x][Th] at least one of them has a nutted hand. That 5h would've been a particularly egregious action killer.

Oh and no one is leveling themselves into heroing vs jam sizing, and targeting exactly the Qh for that is way too narrow of a range to be targeting for value.

Is pre OK for hero? I know having a very tight if not nonexistant SB coldcall range is in vogue these days, this seems like a classic squeeze spot as opposed to coldcalling
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