Posting this for a friend

400/800/75
V 25000 raises HJ 2000
Hero 28000 TT CO
Hero flats
Flop Q73r
V cbets 2500
Hero flats
Turn 2 completing rainbow
V checks
Hero bets 5000
V calls
River A checked through.

So many potential alternate lines in this hand. Thoughts on Hero line?

My initial thought is to 3! pre to 5500 and take it from there. However flatting seems feasible and uncertain about turn/river, in particular whether to turn this into a bluff.

Have to 3-bet pre IMO. 5500 looks good, although I don't mind going bigger in a live game.

As played, post flop looks good. Could even go a little smaller on turn. like 3500.

Pre is close between flat and 3-bet, would mostly 3-bet with JJ and flat with TT, really depends on villain's range and tendencies.

Flop is fine. Lean slightly towards checking turn although I can see merit to betting small, if we check turn we should almost always be calling any river bet and/or betting small for value ourselves on anything other than A/K/J.

Flat is fine. I guess you could 3 bet, but isn't this just an awkward size if he 4 bet shoves?

All streets look good to me.

How is it awkward? Do you not want to get in TT in a CO vs HJ situation for 30bbs?

Need a really strong read to not 3bet TT here. Either opener being insanely insanely tight or some sort of live read. If we're worried about calling a shove and being behind then go absolutely bananas with every suited 3-gapper or better because you'll print infinite money.

In a live setting do we think the HJ is going to 4-bet shove with a range of hands that we're doing well against? If the HJ is going to be 4-bet shoving a lot of AJ-ish type hands or 88-TT, then I can see a 3-bet/gii strategy being fine. That's why I think 3-betting or flatting with TT is really villain dependent.

well played

CO vs HJ 30bb deep I don`t think its close as Soep said.

This is passive bad logic when its blindly applies to every situation.
When you bet turn you protect vs overcards and get value vs hands like AK, 88,77 which you most likely won`t get otr on many river cards.
The fact he will have Qx or JJ sometimes doesn`t necessarily makes checking > betting unless you have reasons to think he won`t call worse and will have JJ+ very often for some reason or will c/r turn quite often due to history or w/e.

If this was online I'd consider this a fairly standard 3-bet/gii, but live $1K's standard players generally aren't 4-bet shoving light, without knowing player tendencies this is dicey. If TT isn't close as you suggest, what's the bottom of our 3-bet range?

With regards to checking/betting turn, I can see the argument for betting.. It really does depend on what you make of villain's c-bet flop/check turn line, especially when the turn is a brick. If you think line looks like marginal made hand then I think we can at least try to get value from middle pair hands like 88-JJ, which is why I don't mind betting small. If you think villain has a fair amount of Qx in their range then I don't like the double barrel so much.

I think a 4-bet shove is AQs+ often enough that TT is a snap unless the player is super tight.

As played, as far as betting the turn: it almost seems so standard for decent+ players to cbet your top pair on the flop, check on safe turns and bet the river again for value that you're probably better off checking the turn. It's definitely V dependent though, particularly if you can identify those players who aren't following the "new-school (but already becoming old school it feels)" lines.

99/AQ at least I guess and I would make 3bet slightly larger like 6.2k.

I think we should adjust to this by 3betting a ton of combo's like T7s, A9o, J9s etc, and not by flatting TT. It's just unnecessary to allow the big blind in or to give hands a chance to hit/bluff us out on bad boards. We can flat some extra KK+ here as traps and some 77-88 to be careful if we think there won't be enough 4b jams or flats, but 99-QQ/AQ-AK should just always 3b/call unless we think the opener is just really not opening any hands ever. If he opens enough hands and only 4bjams JJ+/AK we still print with the 3bet/call even if the call part is -EV.

But remember, we have 33% vs the worst range we can reasonably be up against (JJ+/AK) and we have 44% vs 99+/AQ+ and we're getting some decent pot odds after 3betting to 6-6.5k. Plus, lots of people will shove any pair or flat 88 and check/shove reasonable flops, etc.

In the tournaments I play in (live, mostly 200-500), getting it in with TT here preflop isn't great.

nh
3b is fine 2

thnx for replies

for the record:

live poker 4b jamming range there is like AK+QQ on average (at least at this blind level or thereabouts)

that doesn't mean you shouldn't 3b pre, it just means you should fold to a shove

that's not exactly true, if he calls our 3bets a lot, then no we don't print money 3betting aggro with suited trash against HJ open.
just because he doesn't 4b jam bluffs/"bluffs" doesn't make 3b insanely good.
it's more a function of how wide he opens pre and how often he folds to 3bets.

+1 on RWE posts altough im lil bit closer to 3b calling than folding but 2nd post is 100%

Sure, but then our TT 3bet becomes super good again because we're printing from all the flats there. Plus it's not necessarily less +EV to 3bet 96s if our opponent is going to call a lot but never 4bjam, of course depending on how he plays postflop. I'm not saying you should be 3betting that much, but if we're worried about 3b/calling TT in this spot being great there's a lot of adjustments I would make before flatting TT here.

Yeah I understand. Easy 3b pre imo vs. 2.5x sizing

So how should our overall 3!/fold and 3!/gii ranges be constructed against a random, who we can assume TAG in a vacuum I guess given QJo open ie not nitty.

And what’s the correct shoving range for V?

Somewhere between 66+ ATs+ AJo+ KQ and 99+/AQ+ for value depending on how you estimate villain to react to your 3bets. Throw in some J9s/87s/A5s type stuff as bluffs, decide the amount of combo's based on how you think villain will react. Probably in a live mtt it's optimal to just decide in game based on gameflow whether it's a good time when you have a reasonable hand instead of having an exact range in mind.

I would just check back the turn here with 10s, play the river in position, and bluff catch, is that bad? I don't really see that much value in betting the turn, maybe just to protect against random gutter balls like J10 or J9, or overs. You're also going to be cutting yourself against queens that decide to check call, and against random monsters that clever villains decide to trap.

Also by checking back the turn we can induce villain to bluff w air sometimes and pick up an extra bet on the river. By betting we are mostly just folding out his air and value cutting ourselves when he does have a queen or better.

3betting preflop and getting it in vs a 4bet is an option too but it does seem close. If we had a little bit less chips like say 20-25 big blinds I probably just shove preflop. 30 bigs is sort of awkward and leads me to believe flatting might actually be best. I think 3betting shoving is good w less chips, and a 3bet to somewhere around 6K is good if we are slightly deeper.

Gotta love live poker...
Are we betting turn because?
Also 3bet pre for value, if he folds , good result, if he calls also good result, cus we have position and he prob doesnt have a good hand, and people just hate folding in live tournaments with marginal hands.
Online is a 3bet/´´go broke´´ hand, live it depends, obv ranges are tighter, but you will be surprised sometimes how people love to punt.