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Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp

05-17-2016 , 03:38 AM
$130 live event. 20 min levels. 10 handed.

Blinds 200-400 no ante

Stacks
Utg+2 hero 35k
Btn 6k
BB 35k

Reads
Btn is a poor, loose player who calls very wide pre, seems to not read hands and likes to bet when checked to no matter what, with or without equity. He will also float wide. I have zero respect for his bets.
BB is very laggy and loves to make huge donks and bets when checked to, 1 to 2x pot, with draws, pr plus draw, 2nd pr, weak top pair and air. I originally thought he was drunk but i never smelled alcohol. His actions contain value hands but his range distribution has too many weak hands and draws to be totally balanced. I have little respect for his bets, maybe slightly more for his post flop raises. He made comments about not wanting to be in pots with me because i seemed to play tightly.

Action
I raise ATcc to 1k, btn and bb call.

Flop T62sss

BB chk. My plan was to chk to induce btn to bet. I had no intention to fold to him. I chk. Btn bets 1k leaving 4k behind. BB surprised me by cr to 3.5k. I was not totally convinced since i showed weakness and i was not sure he had the same read on the btn that i did, but i was not sure and i was uncertain if the BB would leverage me out.

Now what?
Thoughts on flop play?
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-17-2016 , 08:01 AM
with ATcc, you have virtually nothing invested in the pot and wide but uncapped ranges for BB and BTN. (in comparison, if you had AsTc then I'd call BB and then raise/gii if BTN jams and BB tries to iso.)

I believe BB has the option to raise again if you call and BTN jams? if so, fold and don't tell anyone. if BTN has no option to raise after a BTN jam, I'd consider calling and deciding based on turn action.

don't get wed. both of these guys are going to chuck chips away eventually.
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-17-2016 , 11:43 AM
^^^ not sure BB can raise again. The flop raise was 2.5K (3.5 - 1). Button has 4K behind, so jamming is only a raise of 1.5K more than the last raise. I'd definitely get a floor ruling before acting here.
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-17-2016 , 09:55 PM
Bb could not raise again as btn jam was not enough. I felt it did not matter what the btn did as his range and play was that bad, i would never fold to his jam. The bb however, despite being out of line with unbalanced ranges often, could still have a lot of equity. My range looked like a draw or a pr and a draw a lot. I felt he would often fire the turn with as little as tpwk for value and he would certainly bet all his draws and i would be in a crappy spot. I chose to fold the flop. Btn jammed, bb called. Btn shows AJdh and btn shows T7 no spade. Crazy game.
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-17-2016 , 10:14 PM
^ yeah, unfortunately that's going to happen a bit against described opponents and I've certainly folded similar spots before. but it's better than going bust against 2pr+

however, if you are certain BB cannot raise again after a BTN jam then flatting BB and BTN otf is viable, but just keep in mind that BB is likely to put you on a draw and barrel his entire range into you ott - and he can have 2pr+
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-18-2016 , 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsilver
^ yeah, unfortunately that's going to happen a bit against described opponents and I've certainly folded similar spots before. but it's better than going bust against 2pr+

however, if you are certain BB cannot raise again after a BTN jam then flatting BB and BTN otf is viable, but just keep in mind that BB is likely to put you on a draw and barrel his entire range into you ott - and he can have 2pr+
Yeah. Given the fast paced nature of this tourney i felt like i would preserve my chips to maximze value and leverage for fold equity for future spots. Though i suppose the opposite argument could be made in that i need to take any and all possible +ev spots given the structure.
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-18-2016 , 01:06 AM
base it on live reads. if you get a sense you're miles in front even with a one pair hand multiway because you checked to induce, then go with your gut.

here's a similar recent spot i had in a $550 live:

Hero HJ 80BB raise 2.5BB w/ KQo, called BTN (45BB) and BB (100BB).
Flop K72scc, BB check, I check and BTN fires >1/2pot, BB calls, I call.
Turn 8h, BB check, I check, BTN fires pot which confirmed he really wanted us both out, BB tank folds, I jam, BTN calls.
River bricks I scoop against A8cc.

It's a really similar dynamic to this hand, but the sizing and reads allowed a snap jam once BB folded (she had AK). BTN was early 30s LAG, BB was strange mix of huge bluffs and then way too tight on certain spots like open folding trips earlier.

So if you want to fold, then fold. And if you want to rip it, then rip it. And you're usually right either way.

Last edited by oldsilver; 05-18-2016 at 01:12 AM.
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-18-2016 , 01:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsilver
base it on live reads. if you get a sense you're miles in front even with a one pair hand multiway because you checked to induce, then go with your gut.

here's a similar recent spot i had in a $550 live:

Hero HJ 80BB raise 2.5BB w/ KQo, called BTN (45BB) and BB (100BB).
Flop K72scc, BB check, I check and BTN fires >1/2pot, BB calls, I call.
Turn 8h, BB check, I check, BTN fires pot which confirmed he really wanted us both out, BB tank folds, I jam, BTN calls.
River bricks I scoop against A8cc.

It's a really similar dynamic to this hand, but the sizing and reads allowed a snap jam once BB folded (she had AK). BTN was early 30s LAG, BB was strange mix of huge bluffs and then way too tight on certain spots like open folding trips earlier.

So if you want to fold, then fold. And if you want to rip it, then rip it. And you're usually right either way.
Are you still happy with your hand and continuing, whether jamming or calling, if bb calls turn instead of folding?
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote
05-18-2016 , 03:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundSpeed
Are you still happy with your hand and continuing, whether jamming or calling, if bb calls turn instead of folding?
BTN sizing would tip BB range towards value hands rather than draws. I was planning to fold.
Top pair on 3 flush flop vs lag and weak opp Quote

      
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