The thinking on this seems to have changed over the years.

5-6 years ago it was 2.5 - 4x.

Today a 4x open would usually make everyone heads explode.

Seems like its either 2 - 2.5. Watching high roller MTTs. 2.0 seems to be more common than anything else.

Though I havent looked to seriouslty, I've never seen a logical explanation as to why MTT wizards think that 2.x is optimum open amount.

My live experience comes from WSOPc type events with large fields where pro's are about 10% of field, smart recs about 50%, rest being fun players who think only Level 1.

In this environment opening for 2.x in early or mid position I've found to be suicide mission. Recs ans wizardss do this consistently. I feel wizards do it because thats what they see on high roller streams, but could not explain logic behind it. Recs do it cuz thats that's what they see wizards do at table.

I typically start playing hands after antes and blinds matter, but I'll open for 4x quite often (on many table draws, I do it every time). it seems to confuse the wizards, avoid situations where I'm going to flop 4-6 handed, and when hand does continue I end up with fewer players and on my way to bloated pot. Which is exactly what I want. I prob lose some value when I only pick up blinds and antes with prem hand, but again we are at point in tournament where that matters.

Could anyone give a GTO type or any other explanation why 2.X opens are optimal. As they must be or high roller regs would not be doing it.

I would assert they are not for reasons listed above.

Go back to NVG moran

sorry about your mommy issues.

anyone older than 12 have any thoughts to share ?

If you want to learn poker, don't watch HR looking for strategic ideas...
It's good entertainment but you can't replicate those strategies in smaller buy-in events.

Lol I can’t give you gto sizing but what I go by based on some tournament poker edge video from way back that I agree with.

60bb- 300bbs: I’m opening to 3x
40-60bb- 2.5x
40bb or less- min raise to 2.2x

From my thoughts, if hero has 80bbs and average of tourny is day 35bbs and your table doesn’t deviate far from this. On 80bbs, you should min open or open smaller than normal bc it doesn’t take so much to get a Villian that is short all in. Also makes our steak attempts cheaper.

Again with these numbers, I feel betting the smallest you can get away with is best. I think 2.4x is better than 2.5x if it’s going to do the same thing. Sometimes from late position, I might open bigger than normal to give myself a shot against someone that always will defend a min open from the bb. Example- open to 2.5x-3x from lp with my whole opening range (idc if it’s AA or 7s6s). I’m going to stay consistent with opening the same size and same amount from say lp.

Also we can min open from ep as we normally will be opening a tighter range the bb should be doing worse against. If we min open utg, we kinda want a bb defend as our range hypothetically should be crushing a bb defend range.


I feel the most important thing is to open the same amount with all types of hands. I feel certain players will raise more with hands like 88/99/jj bc they think they are good but not great against multiple Villians when seeing a flop. Your raise size should never signal the strength of your hand. Opening to say 4x with a hand like this is meh and gives too much info. If im raising 3x with AA, I should raise 3x with suites 45, 88, jj, etc. just my thoughts.

One thing that tilts me is when I see people min raise or go 2.5x when everyone isdrrp super early in an mtt. I think it’s a bad way to build a pot we strong hands. If everyone has say 200bbs, 2x or 2.5x doesn’t seem effective to me.

I must be bad at writing because that was one of my points. ( kinda OT but I strongly disagree that you can't learn more about poker from watching HR streams. I've learned quite a bit from certain commentators. Lex comes to mind as someone that is clear and helped me expand my thinking). But yeah, a 50K HR is a different than a $1600 WSPOc main, which is different from a $400 WSOPC side event. and many decisions will change. In most recent WSOPc I played, basically everyone was using these open amounts in most spots and many spots that seemed to me a spot that justified a much larger open

@jpoker10 provided logic behind why he is opening in 2.1 - 2.5 range. so he is doing it for a reason that works for him

There must of been a reason many top pros starting what is effectively a min raise norm a few years back. Many of them are thinking about the game from a GTO lens. Thus there must be GTO type reasoning as to why this open amount is optimal.

I have never seen an explanation as to why. That is what I came here to find out. (I am by no means a GTO guru and only understand the very basics)


Maybe there is no logic and just the fact that the Germans starting doing it a few years back when they all went on their temp heater. Then everyone just started following them like monkeys without understanding why.

well other than @jpoker10 who provided his reasoning to open sizes, I guess either noboady cares or open sizes dont matter, and it was a dumb question

or

others cant explain why they changed from larger opens of days past, and instead just do it because they saw top pros doing it and blindly followed sans any independent thinking.

Carry on. I will return to NVG. certainly more entertaining.

2x allows you to open the most hands. you lose the least when you have to 3b/fold. it can cause people to spaz. it keeps pots as small as possible, which reduces variance. most people don't defend bb correctly.

all good reasons to 2x.

^^ thanks . sound logic.


In the fields I play (large field WSOPc's ... i.e. lots and lots of recs), I've found opening for the 2.x in early or mid position invariably leads to 3-5 limper . Occasional 3 bet but in the first 3-4 levels the limp fest is more the norm. And depending on able draw this norm sometimes ocntinues into deeper levels .

With suited small pairs, one and two gappers or really any weird hand that has lower equity this is fine.

With premium hands this kinds sucks. (i.e JJ+ five handed to flop ends up in bad spots too often)

Thoughts?

More people putting money in when you have the best hand isn't a bad thing until we're talking about deep ICM spots. Gotta trust your postflop game and play without fear. At certain tables or stack depths you could consider going for some limp raises.

If your raises aren't getting through, or are leading to large multi way flops, up the open.

I mean, it sucks when you open in position, gets defended and they donk lead into you a few times in a row.

If you start raising scary large pairs like JJ / QQ to some abnormal sizing it's fairly easy for opponents to read and adjust. Just raise them to the standard 'normal' amount and see what happens post.

On your earlier point, I believe the 2.x bet sizing has been discovered as a GTO equilibrium, so it's easy and correct to start at that point against a field of random unknown opponents in any hand you open.

Intuitively it makes sense, given that for skilled players having deeper effective stacks (higher SPRs) post flop is a significant advantage.

For example, if we open to 2.1BB from a 50BB stack and larger stack 3! to 7BB, we can call with 43BB remaining and a 3:1 SPR. This allows us some room to r/c pre with hands like T9s and have enough depth to realise our equity - either taking cheap express odds, or by generating maximum fold equity with a c/r line on our best draws. The higher we raise pre, the lower the SPR in a 3! pot and the narrower the range of hands we can profitably defend a 3! with.

I probably was not clear. I pick on open amount based on various things and with few exceptions open with that same amount every time.


good point that I wasn't thinking about. The def comes into play starting in mid levels of MTTs as avg stacks range 25-50BB

What about earlier levels of MTTs where stacks avg around 100BB (or more depending on MTT) , what is the logic here to open min 2.x?

100BB + open to 3BB

makes sense (thank for help btw... I'm trying to fix this which might be one of my leaks)


so.. lets call this the 5 limper problem. happens all too often in the WSOPc large, rec heavy fields I play,

early stages ...100+ BB stacks

Im UTG+ 1... QQ

so I open for 3x. not at all uncommon to get 4 callers.

pot 15BB

Pot 10 7 4 rainbow.

continue bet for 5BB. one caller. Pot 25BB

Turn J.

Bet 8BB, call. Pot 41BB

River whatever say 3.

I check or bet... then villain bet or raise.

With 5 players to flop, much more likely any flop hits one of them. (in these fields many not playing optimum thus many play ATC just cause they feel like they have plenty of chips and will gamble pre for a what they percieve tiny amount compared to their Stack. thats just how they approach game)


If I raised 4x for example. get fewer calls. though anyrec that thinks about game like above should do the same if 3x or 4x open, from experience many more will fold pre. it just happens.


So, in this case just deal with it. if villain has weird two pair or set then bad luck for me, cuz he has WAY more combos that I get value from vs wierd 2 pair or set)

You do realize you have other options besides always betting? Q-Q isn't the nuts and won't always win. (same is also true for K-K and even A-A ) Post-flop skill is far more important then pre-flop bet sizing in the early levels of a WSOPc where there are so many bad players.

Try checking turn. If V bets, call. Check river. If V bets again, believe him/her. The bigger issue is does V believe A/K/Q-J is the nuts here?

good point, just trying to fix one leak at a time.


also true betting not required post flop. aggression just in my DNA. I'll start playing around with toning that down.

thx for help.

I think open-limping is a valid option at some tables.

what sort of table dynamics do you feel this is better choice?

I rarely open limp . sometimes in hijack/cutoff etc. even less freq but sometimes to induce a raise with intention of 3bet (balanced for this , sometimes with premium sometimes with junk drawing hands.

is this a leak for me?

Open limping is fine when the table is deep and passive and 3X eliminates no small pairs, suited connectors or broadway cards from competing.

Obviously, you must feel that you can play better than your passive opponents post flop and avoid traps.

PTLou I have been following this thread and have a few random thoughts to contribute:

Open min raising didn’t really start with the Germans; it started amongst elite online players around maybe 2007-8. When great players are doing something you aren’t doing, you are correct to try to figure out why, since most likely they are right and we are wrong.

In NLHE, we are not really playing for bets; we are playing for stacks. When stacks get shallow, like 50 BB or less, we don’t need to make pots so big to win stacks. We can make small bets and still threaten our opponents stack, so all bets, including preflop, get sized lower. At deeper stacks just open 3x.

Also, I think you are way overemphasizing narrowing the field. If I minraise with QQ and get 6 callers, my attitude is “so what”. I’m not entitled to win every pot I enter. When pots are multi-way most people don’t realize how nitty and defensive you can be...or have to be.

Min opening allows me to play more hands. When I open, 4 things can happen:
I take the blinds
I see a flop
I get raised when I have a strong hand and want to play a big pot; or
I get raised when I have a weak hand.

As you can see, only the last of the four is that bad of an outcome. True all four things can happen when you 4x but again, you can open more when you minraise and can keep pot smaller in all situations.

thx . great post, especially this..


great swing thought, and something I had not internalized. This might be the reason my cash rate is above EV in MTTs, but all too often play later levels with shorter stack and don't get super deep often enough to give myself a real shot at larger portion of prize pools. For me, I dont think this is the chainsaw, I'm a nit dilemna , I think root cause/leak its something closer to your comment above


could you expand on this. I'm not sure I totally understand.

See comments above regarding post-flop play. You have to see past your pretty premium pair and discern what's going on as the hand progresses. Sometimes Q-Q or WE is just a bluff catcher. Sometimes it is the nuts. It is less painful to make a 10-15 BB mistake on the river than it is a 40+ BB as you set up above.

got it . Thanks.

can you now teach me all I need to know about flop bet sizing so I can stop being a baddie

I have a warchest of Slansky Bucks for compensation.

I'll open-limp at a table where no one raises light vs limpers and they respect my raises. For example, when they fold KTo to even a small raise but call with hands like J5s in a limped pot and put in too much action if they flop top pair. Some old men play this way.