Hey everyone,

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster

I wanted to know your thoughts on a spot I recently encountered at a 325$ NLH 100K PKO MTT Final Table online.

I'll put the positions in the hand next to the stack sizes, and then payouts after stack sizes, trying to be as accurate and detailed as possible.

Stacks at the beginning of hand were:

Nine-handed

1st) 1152061 chips (Villain, UTG+2), approx 2.4k bounty
2nd) 1062076 chips (SB, folded), approx 1k bounty
3rd) 894629 chips (Hero, CO), approx 2.2k bounty
4th) 880587 chips (UTG, folded) approx 1.2k bounty
5th) 673702 chips (BB, folded) approx 800 bounty
6th) 661208 chips (HJ, folded) approx 1.8k bounty
7th) 576176 chips (LJ, folded) approx 700 bbounty
8th) 273905 chips (UTG+1, folded) approx 1.3k bounty
9th) 205657 chips (BTN, folded) approx 1k bounty

Payouts for this tourney were (approx):

1st) 21.5k
2nd) 20k
3rd) 13k
4th) 10k
5th) 8k
6th) 5.5k
7th) 4.5k
8th) 3k
9th) 2k

Blinds 15k/30k, 3k ante

The hand starts out folding to villain in UTG+2, who is chip leader, and comes in for a minraise to 60k RFI

Folds to me in the CO. I have 10d10s

I reraise to 180k

Folds back around to villain who insta-shoves. I tank fold.

Should I have just shoved/ Is this a shove-or-fold spot? Should I have called villain's shove? Or did I make the right play?

I now know villain's hand - because this tourney was on a site where you can look up everyone's hole cards after 24 hours pass. I won't spoil his hand until I get some replies.

Additionally, villain was at the other table when we were down to two tables, so I didn't really have any info on villain when the hand occurred. This is the first hand of the final table.

Thanks,
Basquiat

Was V opening wide in early position? Leveraging his chip lead? If so, I like your 3!, but still fold to the shove given ICM. If V is not getting out of line, I think I'm going to flat here vs UTG +1 raise, especially with ICM. You are in position, and have a hand that can snap a squeeze from BU if V folds (or fold if V reshoves).

First hand versus villain, didn't have much info. He was at the other table before we got down to the final table.

I would certainly leverage my stack if I was in villain's position. I don't know if I like my play in retrospect; if I was villain, I probably would have made the play that he did with A10o+, maybe 88, 99, maybe even A5s.

But at the same time, my 3-bet seems strong. I don't really have a reason to mess with villain, especially the very first hand of the FT when we are both have pretty large stacks relative to the rest of the table.


I guess I only brought up this spot because I ended up in a cooler situation not long after and went out in 8th. If I had called and won (or shoved and he called and I won), I would have been a pretty massive chip leader. Of course, if I lost, I get 9th coming into the table with a 3rd place stack.

It's easier to for me to criticize my play in hindsight, knowing now that I got coolered and went out in 8th anyway.

After thinking about it a little bit, I think I like a shove better than my reraise to 180k. But maybe I'm wrong about that and a shove is too ambitious/risky with little payoff (i.e. I risk my entire stack to probably only get called by flips and better hands, and if I do get folds - I only net like 90k chips.

Just an interesting spot.

Thanks for your feedback, Bubble

30 BB is a bit big for a 3! Shove. I like your line. Unless you are playing a lot of tables, when you get to 2 tables, put the other one on your screen, and watch that table as well.

Don’t result yourself based on a future hand, let alone the current one.

Not sure why you'd 3 bet this hand - I mean the only good reasons to 3 bet this is he's opening extremely wide and will call 3 bets wide, or he'll jam a wide range making it an easy 3b/call. If those don't apply calling preflop is much better - not being able to see a flop here with TT in position really sucks.

Because of ICM I would’ve taken a more passive line pf and just called. I think villain can spaz out pf with his Ace rag holdings knowing that you’re supposed to fold a ton of your range and he blocks one of the very few hands you call with (AA).

He’s less likely to spew/try to blow you off after a flop is out there since hands are much more defined.

If we call and bb shoves, we call if CO folds

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I didn't even consider flatting here, so I am definitely intrigued that multiple people like a flat as opposed to a 3-bet. It seems counterintuitive to flat, but it very well could be the right play some amount of the time (or even *all* the time). I'm going to play around with some tools to see what implementing some UTG+1 to CO flats into my range/strategy at this stack depth would look like - because, to be completely honest, I don't know that I currently have much of a flatting range at this stack depth outside of maybe the button or the blinds. I'm 100% going to look at it though; always trying to find improvements.

As far as 30 BBs being too large for a 3-bet shove over a minraise (especially against the chip leader and with another big stack left to act) - that's what I thought too; It seems ridiculous to even consider at face value.

However, The tricky side of me thinks that it puts villain in the same spot villain put me in; I take the initiative if I shove. Villain can't push me off my equity - and instead of me being the one who has a tough time calling with most of my range, villain has a tough time calling with most of his range. Will he call with AJo, AJs, AQo, AQs, AKo, QK, JJ? Maybe. If he loses though, he's down to a 200k stack. I guess it's a dangerous game of chicken, but if I shove - I put him in the hot seat, and he's the one with a tough decision with practically everything except AA, KK, maybe QQ.

None of that is to say that I would actually put a shove into practice; I think it's just interesting to consider from a standpoint of, "Don't allow yourself to be put into a tough spot; put them in a tough spot."

The spoiler is the villain had AsKh. Searched the hand 24 hours later on ignition just to see what villain had. Saw the other player's hole cards too.

Basically I had 56% to win if I called vs. villain's 43% (or if I shoved and he called)

And to the one person who said my line was ok and not to get into results-oriented thinking, thank you too. That's what my IRL poker friends said too, but I wanted to get more input.

Thanks everyone,
Basquiat

3bet/folding TT for 30bb seems bad to me. Basically turning our hand into a 3bet bluff without blockers.

Also agree that 3bet/calling seems bad because of ICM.

3betting small in general is probably bad because of ICM.

Shoving probably makes money but its going to a small edge and high variance.

Flatting gives us the ability to play a smaller pot vs the big stack and we still have a very strong hand to call a shove from the players still to act behind.

I like flat > shove > 3bet/call > 3bet/fold

Quite the interesting spot.
Even without playing with villain yet, the context of highest bounty suggests they may have busted the most players and are playing very aggressive (not always in PKO if you happen to land 1 big one, but typically this is true)
EP min open generally not a wide open range but could be. 3bet is good in normal spots but it's near the bottom of your reshove call range, so you don't want to be making raises that will make you barf all over the table if you have to subsequently fold. 3b the very top of your range and some bluffs, but not the gross spots like specifically 1010 because you're turning it into 72.
My tourney coaches always taught me that this exact phase of tourneys needs to be played with focus on pot control as much as possible.
Limping here feels weird but it does have benefits.
If the others fold, you play the hand in position, huge advantage.
Also you have a stronger than average hand relative to your full range, also an advantage.
Also by flatting you MIGHT induce a light squeeze from either SB (could 4 bet to 8-10 BB then fold to a 5! not likely based on stack but possible) but definitely could happen from BB (20 bb jam to win ~7-9 is a tempting spot to chip up).
In this exact spot a squeeze jam is getting insta called by UTG+2 but at least you would know for less.
I think the overall benefit to flatting does outweigh raising based on all the factors combined

I also like a flat pre with the stack dynamics (we have 3rd most chips, 2 stacks sitting on <10bbs).
That said, 3b/f is also a very reasonable line, and I'm nearly indifferent between the 2. I wonder if you could get away with a slightly smaller 3bet, like 165k instead of the full 3x.

This bloke hit the nail on the head

"3bet/folding TT for 30bb seems bad to me. Basically turning our hand into a 3bet bluff without blockers.

Also agree that 3bet/calling seems bad because of ICM.

3betting small in general is probably bad because of ICM."

Too much ICM juice, let it go move on to next hand.

With ICM, it looks like you’re 3rd and chips and there is a short stack. I think we can flat this hand and also flat all the way to AA as a trap if someone backjams or goes for a reraise. It plays really well that way instead of going against the chip leader in EP. 3bet isn’t bad but when he jams it sucks because for chips it seems like a call but with ICM I don’t think we want to be calling off. And because of that calling behind feels like a stronger play with this hand. I’m not an ICM wizard, though.
OP, after looking at your comment, I will say that you definitely should have a flatting range here and even more so at the final table with ICM considerations. Factor in you can flat traps like TT-AA and AK and realize you’re protected from players behind trying to take advantage and squeeze. Also you could 3bet shove pre but you should not want to play chicken at final tables. ICM favors more passive play

I do not like 3!/folding strong hands with 30xBB. If your 3! gets flat called, you just build the pot against the chip leader late. Flat call or maybe shove.

I will be set mining here and flat. Though if the flop comes out where we have an overpair and/or only one of J and Q we can stick around and see what happens assuming BTN doesn't call (and BTN won't call they will fold or shove).

I typically would have a somewhat wide flatting range here because I don't like getting into big pots against the CL with only 30 bb's. Especially in a bounty tourney where we have less chance of bluffing and winning. Less than 25 bb's and I am raising likely all in.

I also agree with the posts where we get to call a SB or BB shove if Villain folds (Villain is never folding to a BTN shove and will in all likelihood re-shove).

I mostly agree about preflop, but not about set mining postflop at all. TT is way ahead of the opener's range. It is tricky to play, but it is not an automatic fold to a cbet on an ace or king high flop, despite the fact that we know he had AK.

I would also call gii if BTN shoves and original raiser shoves or calls.