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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 10-09-2018, 06:32 PM   #1
Mr Yaba Daba Doo
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some early (2) hands

For some reason I always stress the early stages. Playing deep is scary for me. Maybe we can shake some of that off.

Local $360 Saturday donkament. Blinds are 300/600 with a single 600 additional ante provided the big blind.

Hand 1 - KhTh in the bb

A white young male tag opens utg to 1600 with about 100bb stack. I call from the big blind with KTs of hearts with an 80bb stack behind. Flop is heads up with approx 4100 in the pot. Flops comes QhTd6s. I check, he checks back. Turn is Ts. I bet 2,000. He calls rather quickly. River is As. I thought this ace would scare him if he had a low pp or it hit him if he was pot controlling with Ax. I was afraid of betting because I wasn't sure what I would do if I cot raised as well. What's your move here? Check call, or bet call/fold?

Hand 2 - 8h8c in the hj

A splashy reg with headphones and a hoodie opens 3x to 1800 from utg. He's been very active and shooting the **** with all the winning regs at the tournament as they came by the table. His raise gets no respect of course as there are two callers as well as me in the HJ with 88. The bu calls as do both blinds. I run horrible: Td9d3h.

He continues his bet into all these people and they fold... Hero?
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Old 10-09-2018, 08:49 PM   #2
numberonedonk
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Re: some early (2) hands

Hand 1: I'd rather c/c turn but if you want to bet make it 3k. As played I would bet/decide on river depending on his sizing/timing/etc.

Hand 2: You run horrible because you flatted 88 and didn't flop a set/flopped 2 overs? Do we have 8d in our hand? Did he bet 600 or all in or somewhere in between? Assuming he bet 1/2 or so I'm calling flop bet.
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:27 AM   #3
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Re: some early (2) hands

Hand 1 - Bet and if raised decide depending on the size.

Hand 2 - I'm fine to pitch it assuming a reasonable bet size (say 1/2 pot). If you call the flop, are you folding the turn if it's a brick? I think this is a spot where we sometimes call the flop and sometimes can fold. It's pretty unlikely he is betting into 5 - 6 people with A high on this board.
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:15 PM   #4
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Re: some early (2) hands

H1 is a borderline fold pre. Since we’re deep, it’s not terrible but you’d better be a strong post-flop player to defend here OOP with a hand that performs poorly vs an UTG TAG open range. As played, river should be a bet, yes. I’m not sure I can call a raise, since this is a really awkward board to bluff on. V doesn’t have a flush here when he checks back the flop (what combo of spades would open UTG and check that flop? I can’t figure out any besides a loosely opened KsJs which would often cbet flop) but he can have plenty of FH hands.

H2 usually a fold even though that board hits his range pretty poorly. Betting into so many players oop is usually an overpair.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:26 PM   #5
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Re: some early (2) hands

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Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post
H1 is a borderline fold pre. Since we’re deep, it’s not terrible but you’d better be a strong post-flop player to defend here OOP with a hand that performs poorly vs an UTG TAG open range. As played, river should be a bet, yes. I’m not sure I can call a raise, since this is a really awkward board to bluff on. V doesn’t have a flush here when he checks back the flop (what combo of spades would open UTG and check that flop? I can’t figure out any besides a loosely opened KsJs which would often cbet flop) but he can have plenty of FH hands.
Borderline fold? Are you high? This is a fist pump call pre with KTs 80bbs deep.
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Old 10-10-2018, 06:16 PM   #6
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Re: some early (2) hands

Funny, here's another thread, deep, with KTs, SB vs UTG open. This is obviously better, being BB, (and with ante on top) but I don't know where you figure it's a fistpump. KTs has huge RIO implications vs. an UTG open this deep.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...-open-1653850/

Later in the thread they discuss KTs in the BB and most of them agree it's usually a fold. There's ante in play here which is why I said this was a borderline fold and not a snap fold by any means. This is not a very +EV defend spot. I'd argue it's -EV although I might be convinced it's slightly +EV if someone can present a good argument for it. He also specifically said he classifies V as TAG, which means his UTG open range is probably in the 10-12% range. We have 36% vs. a 12% open range and we're OOP. If you try to argue this is a great spot to defend then you're just clicking keys.

If you recognize the UTG player is better than you postflop, then yes, I think this is an easy fold pre.

There are lots of times to defend KTs in the BB that are much much better than vs a TAG UTG 2.6x open.

Last edited by HawkesDave; 10-10-2018 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:20 AM   #7
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Re: some early (2) hands

Lol at comparing this hand to an online cash game hand. You only bring it up because people say "fold pre" and it supports your argument. Did you have a bunch of old threads saved so you can link them to support your argument?

How do you click keys in a liveament?

Folding here is borderline retarded unless you just suck postflop but then you should just unreg pre but still never folding this once you are in the tournament.

Do you even RYE brah.....https://imgur.com/a/ZgXQhhm
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:50 AM   #8
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Re: some early (2) hands

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Originally Posted by numberonedonk View Post
Did you have a bunch of old threads saved so you can link them to support your argument?
https://imgur.com/a/ZgXQhhm
I turned on my PC the other day and discovered some cool new website called Google. Blew my mind.

Nobody’s clicking keys in a liveament, you’re clicking keys here saying defending a 2.6x UTG open by a TAG is a fist-pump BB defend.

Does your cute little RYE chart include the opener sizing, how many players are at the table, and the stack sizes? It doesn’t appear to. All 3 of those would skew it in the other direction.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:15 PM   #9
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Re: some early (2) hands

I like how you ignored the part about you using an online cash game hand history to support your (foolish) argument. I also just realized the hand you posted was 6 max. So you're using a 6max online cash game hand to support your argument? LOLOLOLOLOLOL ****ing clueless IMO

You think being a 9 handed table, 80bbs deep, and opening to 2.6x is going to skew it in the other direction? That's just ****ing retarded.

Here is the 3b/flat 50bbs+ deep chart BB vs UTG1 (Yes I'm aware V was UTG but they don't have all positions). Regardless even if they did have all positions I would bet everything I own that KTs is never a fold vs UTG. I would also bet that BENCB knows more about tournament poker than you so yea def a fist pump call (maybe even a 3b bluff).

https://imgur.com/a/obdwrOk

If that's not enough for you how about HRC chipEV calcs?

https://imgur.com/a/OmzcpyL


You're either terrible at poker or a huge ****ing nit, either way you should never be folding KTs to a single 2.6x open.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:44 PM   #10
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Re: some early (2) hands

6max widens your defend range, not tightens it. What kind of nonsense are you spewing? lol!
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:33 AM   #11
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Re: some early (2) hands

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Originally Posted by numberonedonk View Post
Borderline fold? Are you high? This is a fist pump call pre with KTs 80bbs deep.
This
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:23 PM   #12
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Re: some early (2) hands

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Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post
6max widens your defend range, not tightens it. What kind of nonsense are you spewing? lol!
You still don't ****ing get it. You're using a 6max online hand to support your argument for folding KTs in the BB in a live full ring tournament. And I don't even see a good reason to fold KTs in the hand you posted. You just found something that supports your view so you posted it without really having a clue.

You also didn't know the difference between a squeeze and an isolation so I'm pretty sure you're clueless when it comes to poker and MTT's.

Dolts gonna dolt
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Old 10-13-2018, 03:57 PM   #13
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Re: some early (2) hands

Lets do some basic math/poker calculations

Against a 12% open range KTs has 40% equity.

We are calling 1000 to win 4100 which we only need 24% equity.

FIST PUMP SNAP CALL MOTHER ****ER

**** YOUR 6 MAX ONLINE HAND
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Old 10-13-2018, 05:04 PM   #14
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Re: some early (2) hands

36% equity actually and that’s against the entire 5-card board, not your equity to the flop.

If you weren’t so obnoxious about it I might have even conceded that I was wrong (and maybe being too nitty) and that it should be a slightly +EV call rather than a borderline fold, but your “fistbump call” is still far from correct, particularly when using the charts you provided. Looks to be a positive spot but not overly so, particularly considering your chart isn’t UTG and appears to have a wider than normal opening range for an UTG live player in a low buy-in tournament.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:28 AM   #15
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Re: some early (2) hands

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Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post
H1 is a borderline fold pre. Since we’re deep, it’s not terrible but you’d better be a strong post-flop player to defend here OOP with a hand that performs poorly vs an UTG TAG open range.
What specifically are the bad outcomes that you fear? If you're worried that you'll pay off three streets with dominated top pair then don't. Fold to all river cbets with top pair.

Theres absolutely nothing the average player will do about it to exploit you. They won't triple air enough on a static Kxx boards, they won't value bet thinnly enough, they won't turn marginal showdown into bluffs enough. They'll make alot of second best pairs or worse and be content to get to showdown.

Rather than needing to be a strong post flop player, I'd say they'd need to be an exceptionally strong post flop player to make KTs a worse than -100 BB/100 call.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:51 PM   #16
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Re: some early (2) hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Yaba Daba Doo View Post
For some reason I always stress the early stages. Playing deep is scary for me. Maybe we can shake some of that off.

Local $360 Saturday donkament. Blinds are 300/600 with a single 600 additional ante provided the big blind.

Hand 1 - KhTh in the bb

A white young male tag opens utg to 1600 with about 100bb stack. I call from the big blind with KTs of hearts with an 80bb stack behind. Flop is heads up with approx 4100 in the pot. Flops comes QhTd6s. I check, he checks back. Turn is Ts. I bet 2,000. He calls rather quickly. River is As. I thought this ace would scare him if he had a low pp or it hit him if he was pot controlling with Ax. I was afraid of betting because I wasn't sure what I would do if I cot raised as well. What's your move here? Check call, or bet call/fold?

Hand 2 - 8h8c in the hj

A splashy reg with headphones and a hoodie opens 3x to 1800 from utg. He's been very active and shooting the **** with all the winning regs at the tournament as they came by the table. His raise gets no respect of course as there are two callers as well as me in the HJ with 88. The bu calls as do both blinds. I run horrible: Td9d3h.

He continues his bet into all these people and they fold... Hero?
I wouldn’t play tournaments if you are scared of being raised in h1. I think you can check/ call river or lead out on river. I prolly lean toward leading and re-evaluate if you are somehow check raised which is prolly a nutty hand if this happens as the board is wet.

H2, idk how you run horrible. I might flat and re-evaluate turn if player is laggy. If it’s a nit, ez fold and just find better spots. Like another poster said, if 5-6 players to a flop, player prolly isn’t cbetting light here. I kinda hate this board for your hand bc hitting your set leads to a super coordinated board.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:50 AM   #17
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Re: some early (2) hands

I think checking river in H1 would be okay against a good player. He'd likely be betting the rivered ace at high freq for thin value or as a bluff.

Instead what will happen here is the average live villain will check behind AK etc and have no natural bluffs (would have cbet 98s on the flop) and will not turn marginal pairs into bluffs.

Therefore all you achieve by check/calling is missing value against AK, AJ, Qx and always paying off flushes, boats and straights. I would expect the call to be -EV.

So bet for value and if you get raised you fold. You can GTO all you want but a river bet-fold is not going anywhere as a sure and reliable exploit in this game type.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:58 AM   #18
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Re: some early (2) hands

Hand 1: Closing the action getting great pot odds good players don't fold anything remotely playable, and rightly so. Maybe when we get to Q6s or K8o or something we can start arguing, but KTs is so playable I have no idea why you'd ever fold.

Bet river yourself, you could c/r vs AJ/AK but I'd rather have a stronger hand for that. C/c is obviously unnecessarily weak and you want to get called by hands that may check behind. Bet big, if that quick call is a medium strength hand he often has a hand that has an easy fold like 88 or rivered an ace with AJ/AK and is now never folding for psychological reasons of having improved. Call raise if you think he can bluff, fold to raise if you don't think he will.

Hand 2: Not sure what the question is, your hand sucks and will get worse on almost every turn and river. Even if he has a wide range pre and bets many/everything on the flop you should still probably fold. If this was headsup, 88 is a hand you can peel vs super wide players and fold vs tigher ones, but this is not remotely close.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:19 AM   #19
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Re: some early (2) hands

What was needed to be said has been said. Cheers and good luck in the kitchen (cooking w/ dog ref. ftw)
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