Early in the tournament, I`m on the UTG with 17bb holding 88, I`am short-stack at the table , average stack is nearly 40bb. I had doubts what`s the best play at this situation. I ran it in holdem source and based on that shoving 88 is unprofitable.I had tight image so if I raised, then got reraised, I`d be in a very tough spot.and folding seems to be a very tight play. Let us know, how you think, I should`ve approched it

I think I’m still shoving a very small stack early in mtt

Are there antes in play? Makes a MASSIVE difference in terms of your overall shoving range. Also is this a full 9 handed table? That too matters a ton.

But 88 I think regardless of whether or not antes are in play and regardless of the seating format will make it into your UTG shove range @ 17bb. You're almost always ahead of whatever random hands are behind you and you still get called by worse (or at least "worse" meaning you have a 55/45% equity advantage).

In fact, I'm trying to think of what condition would need to exist for it not to be profitable in terms of +cEV (which is all that matters this early) and I'm drawing a blank.

I am also curious what calculations you did to find that 88s are -EV @ 17BB in any position, especially with no VPIP beforehand. What would you do with 99 UTG w/ 17BB?

I would suggest looking into push fold charts, Jonathan Little has some solid charts online for free!

Can't see this ever being a fold. While I doubt you'll find yourself in any dominating positions (maybe 77 or 66 calls), enough AK, AQ, AJ, KQ will call to make this profitable.

Interested where everyone thinks the cutoff is...might be 77 or 66 here for me.

with antes this is surely profitable shove, but its close.
Mayby when you know table is to better minraise/fold/call?

I'll point out that Little's charts online only go up to 15BB and they have TT+ as a push with no antes and 66+ or 88+ as a push with antes, depending on the size of the antes, at 15BB.

This suggests that he thinks this is either slightly correct or slightly wrong to shove with 88 from UTG at 17BB deep if there are antes and definitely wrong if there are no antes. Also, perhaps, shove if it is BB ante and don't if it is not.

I might just shove (or possibly fold) if I am at a table full of strong players, since I would likely be one of the worst players at the table, but either limp or min-raise if I am at a table full of weak players. Given the right sort of players in late position, I would definitely consider a limp/reraise line.

Basically, it seems like a borderline situation where it's probably not horrible to shove and not horrible to do something else, so the correct answer is sensitive to table conditions. I probably would be more likely to simply fold than shove here, but I don't see the grounds for criticizing someone who would do the opposite.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that you are likely open folding JJ UTG?

You are misunderstanding. I am more likely to fold 88 than shove UTG with 17bb if there were no antes, but I am probably more likely to do neither.

Min-raise and call off against a shove is the GTO solution, and it is likely the best play against everyone besides super-tight shovers. Also, my push/fold app goes up to 20bbs, not 15. Even if pushing 8-8 is +EV does not mean it is optimal. Just because a play is +EV does not mean it is the most +EV play, especially when options are not allowed (for example, there is no min-raising range in a push/fold chart).

I would min-raise call. (Considering I learned alot of my game from Jonathan's site, it would make sense my answer and his are identical.)

I would not shove anything at 17BBs from EP, even with antes. In general, I min-raise from EP down to about 8 BBs without antes and about 10BBs with antes. The reason being that my EP range is tight enough to meet any MDF standards that I need not worry about the small portion of my range that is open/fold.

Overall this allows me to play a touch more hands than the raise charts provide as a shove only solution.

If you min-raise and you get min-3bet, who calls and who 4bet shoves?

tbh we should also consider the whole table dynamics in general.

If for instance we have position on villain, who steal/fold to 3bet a lot we find much better spots to get it in an build our stack back up or at least conserve it until we find a good spot to double up.

If we are likely to be one of the weaker players at the table, I' m more towards taking small +EV spots, because we are not very likely going to profit from any mistakes pre or post flop.

If this push is neutral Ev, I think the overall dynamics defines if it's a push or fold

GTO with 88 mr and call anybody?
Can anybody elaborate?

MR advantages i see only if there is massive shoves behind be and we can fold

Bad thing is we probably get lots of shoves KQ,AJ,AT which could fold against our shove...

All hands listed are min-raised from UTG. This is the calling range against UTG+1's all-in, showing 8-8 is called most of the time. Calling ranges against the other positions are obviously wider, including 100% of 8-8. This chart is for 15bbs with a normal ante. GTO will be a bit tighter for 17bbs, but this range is quite close to the actual 17bb GTO solution.



That said, this is likely not optimal against most opponents because they will jam tighter than GTO, leading you to raise a bit wider and then fold the bottom of the GTO calling range.

Still it interesting posting.
Can anyone elaborate 88 minraise/call idea?
It seems like MTT lots of guys respect utg open, they flat after you or shoving range is much tighter. Nobody shoves with 55 into your utg open
If they flat it's very hard to play smth like KJx board with no position shallow stack
Don't get me wrong I accept gto strategies, but still, there could be ideas which are easily spoken. Only edge i can see is multiall-ins behind you

8-8 has enough equity against a GTO shoving range to justify calling, given the pot odds. It is as simple as that. Obviously if your opponents are too tight, you may not be getting the correct price.

In this case:

Hand:
Position: UTG+1
Stack: 12,000
Blinds: 400/800 + 100

EP min-raises to 1,600, UTG+1 raises all in to 12,000.

UTG + 1 should have about a 10% range. The top 5% of value hands + another 5% bluff range. 88 should have roughly 45% equity against most of those balanced ranges.

The point is that if you min-raise and your opponent is unknown or is playing close to GTO, 88 is a call.

Obviously if you have read that he is not 3 bet shoving the right amount of hands, adjust your calls.

I thought Jonathan little cut off stack was 15bb no? I'm surprised... 10bb ... wow.