Tourney at my local small buy in but 15 k in the prize pool. Day 1 of 2 level 9

I must say that this year my game has gone to the next level I have been constantly outplaying people, doing some huge bluffs and winning big pots with marginal hands and knowing my image very well. Also constantly learning

My stack was roughly 70-85k blind was 6/1200 1200 button ante

Villain(just moved to the table) limps utg 2 other limpers

Hero on the button with 45ss I decide to squeeze to 8k

Villain calls and hijack

Flop 6c6d 2h

Check to me I bet 11k villain raises to 25k and has roughly 30k behind. HJ folds

Villain is constantly staring at me like I’ve just put him all in for a ept title. (In my mind I’ve thinking when people constantly starting at you they are weak)

If I had any hand I would not of been going anywhere even if I had 2 high cards I’d go over the top. I put him on small pair at best just because he looked so weak and I just felt like it could even be random air. I tanked for ages and he’s literally starring at me constant. If it was a reg I’d deffo go over the top with anything this guy I’d never seen before and was about 30

I really felt like he was going to fold if I shoved but I’m sitting here with 5 high and he’s put half his stack in. I tanked and tanked and then painfully folded.

He then showed j7 of hearts LMAO

My question is should we always go with our gut ? so we can sleep at night haha
Do you think I have enough fold equity here in general ?
If I 3bet shove Do you think small pairs or even 77-99 are in a tough spot


I did feel like maybe I’m getting a bit carried away if I shove here I’ll look
Like a nutcase lmao

But this hand really hurt me because I so badly wanted to pull the trigger but I shrivelled up and then to see that I was right and didn’t follow my gut hurt me bad.
I feel like we should always follow our gut because if we are wrong we’ll get over it because we have our reasoning, but if we was right and didn’t follow through it hurts .

Thanks any concerns or problems with the hand feel free to discuss

You're really not thinking about this hand correctly. You're falling into the trap where you don't really think about what hands he could play this way and are instead just assuming he's a crazy spewer.

Here are my 2 cents:
Both players limp/call. HJ almost never has anything but a weak speculative hand--suited connectors, suited broadways, and weak pairs (2s-8s let's say). UTG could be trapping sometimes (which is pretty terrible anyway), so he has the occasional stronger hand in his range, but mostly suited connectors, suited broadways, and pairs.

On the flop, the only hands that hit the flop are 6s and 2s (for 4 combos), and say A6s, 65s 64s... etc. There really aren't any good draws, so the rest of the time the limpers will have overpairs or random junk. You will have mostly overpairs and the occasional A6s, but also a lot of junk.

If you really want to decide whether or not to shove here, you have to think about what villain could be check/raising with. Maybe he's doing it with a weak overpair (7s+). Do you really think he's check/raising this dry board with quads or a full house? Even trips? The only further problem is, will villain interpret your 3bet jam also as a bluff? You'll play people who are hyper aggressive in these spots, who will check/raise with Ax and then flat your 3bet with A-high.

Here you are much better off checking behind and hoping to turn a good card or betting really small, on the order of quarter pot. The reason for betting small is that you're going to have a lot of bluffs here, but you're also going to have a lot of thin value bets. If you bet small, your opponents are forced to call with some A-high hands (hands your thin value bets beat), etc., otherwise you could bet any 2 cards for an immediate profit.

I don't mind going for a small bet here, since you do have a gutshot. But you have to be cognizant that you really don't have many hands that can bet for value here. Villain knows this and is exploiting the fact that you are most like over-bluffing in this spot. Checking is good here also because you are often going to have overcards that still have equity that you'd also like to check behind.

Of course I thought about all the hands he could play here. I knew he was weak he was never trapping with a big hand he had a pair of random air that’s what my mind was on. If he had a big hand then gg my read was that he was not trapping at all.

Also pot was pot was 28.2k so I think 11k is a good and small enough bet
Also I have plenty for value when I’m squeezing I can have 77+ And even ace high will be good here a lot.

Checking here I don’t agree with I have 5 high I wanna cbet and take it down. Guys will lead any turn and just put me on Ak here. I have a good understanding of how this field plays it’s just this guy I’d never seen before

Also yes I did think he may think the 3bet would be seen as a bluff and he might just call with a pair. That’s why I folded really. But my 3 bet shove puts pressure on his whole range here I think

That's fine that you want to take it down, but you're also playing against 2 opponents who also know that you have nothing a lot of the time on this board. 11k is too big for this board if you're going to be betting at a high frequency. It also puts you in a bad spot when you get action.

Even when you're check/raised here, it's tough to credibly 3bet jam versus an aggressive opponent. If you have a strong holding, why jam and make all of your opponent's bluffs fold? Thus when your opponent check/raises and has like 1/2 psb behind, you're in a bad spot, since he's jamming the turn at a high frequency.

You say "of course" you thought about both of your opponents' holdings, but your analysis and your decision doesn't reflect that.

imo, the best line in this spot is betting 6-7k, flatting a small check/raise, since you still have your gutshot and fold equity on the turn, and then firing another small barrel on the turn. By betting small, we also have the option to say "gg Mr. Agrodonk, you win," and wait for another spot for him to spew off his stack to us.

A

Sorry I should of said this I’d deffo play my hand different against regs the reason why I bet flop is because that’s how I have won many pots with out a problem in this field that is a very useful play. I actually should of said that, I pretty much know all the good players and I know the fish. If I’m
Playing a reg i would deffo consider checking and play the hand very different.

Yeah if I had a hand I’d flat and let him shove turn with 30k left
But I think you missed my point the reason I said “of course” is because he had a weak pair or random air that was my read 100% and if he didn’t then gg but that’s what I decided in the moment with the dynamics so that’s why I had to get my Shove in first. But I’d don’t know if he’s gonna fold a pair after putting half his stack in as it’s a soft field.
I know I don’t hit this board but neither do they that’s why Im betting and I think my shove can get through but I’m not sure if he will fold a pair.

One of the questions form the thread is do you think enough pairs fold here ?[/QUOTE]

I think pre is a disaster. I could get behind a limp behind because these monkeys youre playing against have already made a "mistake" in the sense that by limping ahead of you theyvr given you the chance to take a 1bb flier OTB with a hand that can flop semidecently. The way to make them pay is by taking that flier and try to outplay them post for as cheap an upfront cost as possible, not opening your whole stack with 5-high. Youre going to find it exceedingly tough to consistently take down pots vs lp stations (actually a mix lf lp stations and maniacs) with an hand whose median flop yields like 5- high was a gutshot.

You sound totally overconfident, hence why it "hurt" you to lose with 5-high

It hurt because I didn’t follow my read lol not loosing with 5 high.
I do sometimes limp with these hands but these pots are just up for grabs regardless of my cards.
I was card dead and I know I can get away with stuff like this. Most of the time

this has got me thinking i wonder if we flatted the raise if he would of shut down on the turn because in reality what hand would we possibly fold.

I do agree now that smaller size is better maybe 11 is to big. but like i said id deffo play my hand different against regs.

From this thread I just wanted an opinion if the shove would be ok.
My reasoning behind a shove because i felt like he just had air

It doesn’t matter what your read was. You had 5-high and a gunshot. If you want to start shoving in spots where you’re praying just to be 50/50 or facing a stone cold 0 equity bluff then you’re going to be in a world of hurt. His raise literally has to be napkins for you for you to get a shove through. If he calls you with any overpair you’re absolutely crushed here (16%).

V made a good bluff because this flop should never be hitting your squeeze range. Take your lump and move on. Next time you raise 76s in the CO and nail a flop you’ll stack him.

HAHA it always matter what my read was.If i followed my read in that hand I would won a nice pot with 5 high purely on my read.But I didn't and i couldn't stop thinking of the hand. i was so close to pulling the trigger, it felt like air so bad.Usually id snap fold it was just the dynamics of this hand it all got me deep in the tank thinking if i shove here heres going to fold i know it but then folded to see I was 100% right

I Honestly don't usually get into spots like this,Where Im thinking of 3 bet shoving with 5 high and wanting him to fold Im getting more and more aggressive so i get into some weird spots.

One major thing I got from this hand is to always follow my read.

If you think a shove here is profitable with under 20% equity (and only FE against complete air) because of your gut feeling then you’re on the wrong forum.

If you think your read was valid because he stated you down, well I’m a bit over 30 and I stare people down sometimes and it’s irrelevant whether I’m strong or not. Anyway, there’s another sub forum here to discuss physical tells if that’s what you’re looking to get validation for.

People limp/call small/middle pairs all day long in these tournaments.

Thats not my point at all, you are clearly oblivious to actually getting a feel in a hand. This is nothing to do with maths im talking about dynamics and in this very moment.

Also I think i can have FE against his whole range. he was asking a question and I should of gave him the right answer. Im not in the business of trying to get people fold in this spot, It just came up and knew what to do but didn't follow through thats my whole point.

it wasn't a normal stare down at all,it just screamed please fold

yes and thats why im thinking he may fold pairs I said I thought he had a pair or air and even pairs he may fold. that was a question I asked.

I think all pairs are in a tough spot when i 3bet shoove he has 99 at the top of his range. there was a lot of variables that come into my thinking to shove. but I just dont know if hes going to fold pairs here

The dynamic is that an unknown player sat down and check-raised you for half his stack (usually very strong) and you held less than 20% equity against anything that calls your potential shove. Hell, you didn’t even have a backdoor flush draw to get you to 20%. You got a gut feeling that an unknown player was check-raising you with napkins and regret that you didn’t make a move on him. As I said before, I think you’re on the wrong forum.

As I said before you clearly missed the point.

Pre is obv very loose and I'd go fold > call > raise but its whatever. Also flop bet should be way smaller, something like 1/4 to 1/3 pot.

I agree that when someone stares you down live they're often bluffing but I don't see this being a profitable shove since hes committed half his stack here, which makes me think we have 0 FE. If he shows us rags then congrats to him its unprofitable long term but works here.

I know this is not a profitable shove, but on a board like this how many are gonna check raise bluff ? I think a lot and I think a lot of this field likes to check raise or lead to see where they are.

That’s why I was wodering about FE against pairs also. Like I said my read was a small pair or air that’s what I was set on just the way the hand played out that’s why it got me thinking about FE against 33,44,55,77,88,99
I’m not trying to say I should be shoving here 100% I was just in the moment and it got me asking questions

I think you can take your first two sentences and have a meaningful takeaway from this hand. If a large amount of people are going to x/r bluff you on this board, then we should probably cbet smaller.


Plus when you get raised here we can pretty comfortably fold the worst hands we'll have here (which is 5 high) and continue with all of our pairs/Ax/6x. Additionally I agree that before we know v's hand I wouldn't perceive you to have any FE either, so jamming with 5 high might not be great. All of this gets thrown out the window when villain can do this with 0 equity jack high bluffs, and then we can probably stuff it here with impunity since he'll be doing this with way too much garbage. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, everyone gets one out of line bluff before they can never do it again vs us, this was just his.

Pre is almost always a limp behind with 54ss, if we're squeezing this hand we're probably squeezing way too much of our range. Plus 54ss plays nicely multi-way in limped pots like these. If we are going to squeeze, sizing of bet is pretty bad, 8K with all dead money in the pot is just too small as it incentivizes light calls.

If we get here on flop I can see betting small with our entire range, 11K isn't too horrible considering size of pot but 8-9K is probably better. As played I'm not sure I would ever have any 3-bet shoves here - if I do get c/r here vs. unknown and I have AA/KK or the occasional 6x, I'm going to want to call and allow my opponent to stack off on the turn. That does mean we can't 3-bet bluff the flop here, but that's ok because I probably shouldn't have very many 3-bets for value anyway.

Hi, I was card dead for last 2 levels really and decided I was gonna play this hand aggressive. What size would you suggest pre ? I’d deffo raise to 8k with a lot of my hands here.

Yes I agree now 8-9 k is a better size

It was just a very weird feeling in the hand where something clicked to make me want to shove it dosnt happen often where I feel like this lol. The hand was on my mind all night just the feel of the hand just the way he was staring at me. It just got me thinking on what would he do with a pair if I shoved I know I should call with all my real hands here but what’s he gonna do on the turn say if he had 33/44/55 /77/88 and I called the CR on flop surely he’s going to check and give up because I should never have any worse hand there.

I’m not trying to have a range for 3bet shoving this flop at all it was just a weird spot I got in where I though if I shove he’s going to fold and it opened my mind a bit. I’m not trying to be a nutcase, something just clicked in my mind.

I think maybe I worded this thread wrong. I’m not trying to be a superstar and 3bet shove people with little equity. Like I said something inside clicked in the hand a feeling I have not had often. I just wanted to know should we always go with our gut whether it’s folding calling or shoving.

This hand I couldn’t get of my mind just all the variables from the dry board to the tells and i just wanted some opinions on my thinking. Of course I know this is not something I should be doing long term but I couldn’t help but over think thebhand after the feeling I got from it.

You can find low equity spots all day long in a tournament or a cash game where you’re convinced the other player is bluffing or weak, that doesn’t mean you should shove them. In this hand, you’d have more equity vs his calling range with lots of other better bluff hands than 5-high with a gunshot and if you’re considering shoving all of those hands in this situation then you’re burning money in the long run.

You need to try to protect your bluffs with at least 20-30% equity as often as you can so that they’re still profitable (combined with FE) those times that we actually get called.

Just limp dawg.

I understand the belabored point you make. However, how do you know he wouldn't have spite called after his bluff didn't work? Unless he's a complete drooler he may have believed he was bluffing with the best hand.