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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 07-15-2020, 11:04 AM   #1
Bubblebust
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Set of As on 4 heart board

These situations are always tricky for me.

This is ACR $150 tournament. Middle stages but not close to the bubble. I have a healthy stack with around 95 bbs. V is also healthy with around 60 bbs. No real reads on V who is fairly new to table.

OTTH.

I open from UTG +1 with AcAd to 2.5 bbs.

Folds around to V who calls from BB.

Flop (7 bbs): Ah6h7h. V x/cs my 5 bb c-bet. Sizing good here on this scary board?

Turn (17 bbs): Qh. V and I check. Is this a mistake? I do this because I really don't want to get x/r here and will play bluff catch on the river to modest sized bets. Should I block bet here and x-back the river unless the board pairs? But if I do and get x/r, then what?

River (17 bbs): 3c. V leads the river 25 bbs. How do I handle this oversized bet after showing weakness on the turn?
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:18 PM   #2
000Puh4u
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

Preflop - standard.

Flop - why are you raising so much on a monotone board? You should usually go with a small bet e.g. 20-33%. Bu judging the size of the pot on the turn, villain x/r you to the minimum. Thus, you have an easy call.

Turn - I like your check back on the turn. There are four hearts and you do not have any so you wanna go to showdown.

River is an easy fold vs the overbet. Vs such a large river bet, you can fold the majority of your hands. You could have any flushes to call with for bluff catching e.g. J, T, -high. Thus, a set is lower much lower in your overall range.

A one piece of advice, which I am struggling myself with is try to overfold the river.
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:23 PM   #3
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

Snap fold, not sure why you would want to post such a trivial hand as this. Please don't tell me that folding in a spot like this bothered you enough that you are still thinking about it. Or are you hoping that someone create a wide enough range for Villain that their Pio solver will say that it was the right move to call?

You are in the doldrums of the tournament (middle stages, nowhere near the bubble,) you have only put a few chips in the pot and the four-flush on the board excludes you. Why would you want to call a big overbet? The only downside to folding is that everyone will know that they can push you out of a hand if a four-flush hits.

Are you trolling, and I'm a sap? something tells me that you might be laughing at me for bothering to answer.
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:37 PM   #4
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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Originally Posted by 2pairsof2s View Post
Snap fold, not sure why you would want to post such a trivial hand as this. Please don't tell me that folding in a spot like this bothered you enough that you are still thinking about it. Or are you hoping that someone create a wide enough range for Villain that their Pio solver will say that it was the right move to call?

You are in the doldrums of the tournament (middle stages, nowhere near the bubble,) you have only put a few chips in the pot and the four-flush on the board excludes you. Why would you want to call a big overbet? The only downside to folding is that everyone will know that they can push you out of a hand if a four-flush hits.

Are you trolling, and I'm a sap? something tells me that you might be laughing at me for bothering to answer.
I did fold. But I feel I get exploited in these situations all the time. I think that once I check the turn, I green light V to blast an overbet with any two. One of my biggest worries about my play is that I think perceptive opponents can exploit me quite easily as I rarely or ever hero call on a scary board -- when I call, I've got the goods but usually broadcast that before the river. And I think my check back on the turn is screaming I don't have a heart -- although I probably also check back a medium sized heart, which maybe I have to call the river with.
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:05 PM   #5
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubblebust View Post
I open from UTG +1 with AcAd to 2.5 bbs.

Folds around to V who calls from BB.

Flop (7 bbs): Ah6h7h. V x/cs my 5 bb c-bet. Sizing good here on this scary board?
There's no reason to size up your cbet here. If he has just a naked heart J/Q/K, even at 3/4 psb, he only needs 29% equity to continue here (not including implied odds). Charging him a bad price to draw doesn't really matter that much here (and we have the deck crushed) so I think we want to focus on extracting value from the bottom part of his range. This will also help us when we want to cbet with air on dry boards for 1.5bb. Given the stack depth, 2.5bb cbet seems reasonable, but I'd probably just cbet 2bb.

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Originally Posted by Bubblebust View Post
Turn (17 bbs): Qh. V and I check. Is this a mistake? I do this because I really don't want to get x/r here and will play bluff catch on the river to modest sized bets. Should I block bet here and x-back the river unless the board pairs? But if I do and get x/r, then what?
+1 for the turn check

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Originally Posted by Bubblebust View Post
River (17 bbs): 3c. V leads the river 25 bbs. How do I handle this oversized bet after showing weakness on the turn?
Yeah it really sucks our hand is underrepped because competent regs will make us fold thanks to our turn check, but a turn check is mandatory imo. As played, Good fold

Last edited by PunnyYouSayThat; 07-15-2020 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 07-15-2020, 03:50 PM   #6
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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Yeah it really sucks our hand is underrepped because competent regs will make us fold thanks to our turn check, but a turn check is mandatory imo. As played, Good fold
Thanks. Any merit to balancing/protecting our check back range here to include all the big hearts? This might protect against the exploit, but is probably losing value and not GTO.
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Old 07-15-2020, 04:09 PM   #7
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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Thanks. Any merit to balancing/protecting our check back range here to include all the big hearts? This might protect against the exploit, but is probably losing value and not GTO.
I take an exploitive approach to every hand I play, but for the most part, I wouldn't check back the Kh because we want two streets of value vs the Jh/Th, but I think pot controlling and checking back the Qh/Jh is totally reasonable to consider

Last edited by PunnyYouSayThat; 07-15-2020 at 04:13 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-15-2020, 05:44 PM   #8
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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I take an exploitive approach to every hand I play, but for the most part, I wouldn't check back the Kh because we want two streets of value vs the Jh/Th, but I think pot controlling and checking back the Qh/Jh is totally reasonable to consider
Jh/Th*
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:12 PM   #9
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

The river is close, because he is only betting for value that sizing with the nut flush or maybe 2nd nut flush, but he might try that a lot as a bluff, so I might call a reg.
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:39 PM   #10
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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Originally Posted by PunnyYouSayThat View Post
I take an exploitive approach to every hand I play, but for the most part, I wouldn't check back the Kh because we want two streets of value vs the Jh/Th, but I think pot controlling and checking back the Qh/Jh is totally reasonable to consider
What does the first part even mean?
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:40 PM   #11
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubblebust View Post
These situations are always tricky for me.

This is ACR $150 tournament. Middle stages but not close to the bubble. I have a healthy stack with around 95 bbs. V is also healthy with around 60 bbs. No real reads on V who is fairly new to table.

OTTH.

I open from UTG +1 with AcAd to 2.5 bbs.

Folds around to V who calls from BB.

Flop (7 bbs): Ah6h7h. V x/cs my 5 bb c-bet. Sizing good here on this scary board?

Turn (17 bbs): Qh. V and I check. Is this a mistake? I do this because I really don't want to get x/r here and will play bluff catch on the river to modest sized bets. Should I block bet here and x-back the river unless the board pairs? But if I do and get x/r, then what?

River (17 bbs): 3c. V leads the river 25 bbs. How do I handle this oversized bet after showing weakness on the turn?
Flop size is way to big youíre supposed to beer like 1-4 -1/3 to get the ev here.
Turn is a pure check and then otr itís a pretty easy fold for that size
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:06 PM   #12
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
What does the first part even mean?
I mean that I'm open to checking back the kh in "some" situations if I feel like I can exploit someone. Obv very low frequency if ever given the situation. I'm going for two streets almost always with the Kh.
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:43 AM   #13
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

As others have pointed out, sizing on the flop is too big. Monotone flops usually call for smaller sizing. What does your bigger sizing accomplish? You aren't folding out the good draws, and your sizing gets less of his made hands to call 1.

On the turn, yes, an automatic checkback. Would be silly to bet, and then have your hand put in jail by a checkraise. You have 10 outs to the effective nuts, and would likely lose the chance to win a huge pot when you make a bigger full than your opponent on the river.

River is a fold, barring reads. This sort of spot is interesting. It is hard to find good bluffs, because Villain can't really have good blocker. What happens, is that Villain is either all value, or if he does recognize this as a good bluffing spot, way too bluff heavy.

You do need to check back some of your made flushes on the turn. PIO likes to check back almost all of its Jh, Th, and bet all of its Kx.

For me, without having done the PIO work, I'd also check back KJhh exactly, since we block the second nuts, might not be so easy to get two streets. Either way, you MUST have some made flushes in your turn check back range.
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Old 08-04-2020, 04:05 PM   #14
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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Originally Posted by 3for3poker View Post
For me, without having done the PIO work, I'd also check back KJhh exactly, since we block the second nuts, might not be so easy to get two streets. Either way, you MUST have some made flushes in your turn check back range.
yeah, very good point
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Old 08-04-2020, 11:20 PM   #15
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

is this one of those spots where GTO/PIO recommends a huge turn overbet?

have seen similar with 33 on A823 monotone in the past, but not sure whether applicable to AA on A67Q monontone
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Old 08-06-2020, 01:05 AM   #16
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

Am I the only one who thinks it's call on the river?
OP, it's hard to analyze this hand, because I'm having hard time figuring your range on the flop. I personally on this flop bet range with 25% sizing. Regardless, you definitely would be overfolding the river if you fold all of your pairs, two pairs and sets. Against regs I would call without hesitation. However, it is a fold against recreational players, because they are not likely to find enough bluffs in these spots, these boards are little tricky, some might even have zero bluffs.
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Old 08-06-2020, 11:28 AM   #17
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

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Am I the only one who thinks it's call on the river?
Really hard to find a call imo with the river sizing. When he x/c the flop (big cbet), his range is heavily weighted towards flush draws (unlikely he has top pair). Now he's overcompensating for the fact that we checked back the turn and is trying to get max value with the top of his range.

I suppose if he's a competent player and trying to get us to fold top pair (which seems reasonable since our hand looks like tp. Questionable river sizing tho) then I think you can argue a call, but OP said V was unknown

Last edited by PunnyYouSayThat; 08-06-2020 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:56 PM   #18
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Re: Set of As on 4 heart board

I think this is a fairly easy river fold vs. that sizing. My experience is that this is a spot that gets underbluffed so I don't think we're being exploited by folding here. It's so easy for us to have random pairs with a heart in them that will x/b turn intending to call river.

Do agree flop sizing is wonky, especially on a monotone A-high board.
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