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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 05-14-2018, 09:58 PM   #1
wisem2540
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Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

All,

Pretty straight forward question. I see a RIDICULOUS amount of preflop allins, sometimes with very marginal hands.

But even some of the stronger hands, AK, AQ for instance, even up against a small PP means you are behind. AQ vs even something like KT is only, what? A 2-to-1 advantage?

I cant see the strategy behind placing your tournament life on a coinflip unless you are short.

Seems to me that, if you are confident in your play, there would be alot more value in at least seeing a flop
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:45 PM   #2
Black Aces 518
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

And then you flop top set and get it in against a flush draw, and that's only what? A 2-to-1 advantage?

Also, the TV show is based around showing preflop allins as they are the most "dramatic" to casual fans.

And if you are obviously unwilling to invest preflop, players will just run over you, as you fold and fold to "find a better spot". Basically no one is good enough to fold AQ if shown KT by an allin opponent. Plus once you are to that spot, you are often being laid a great price.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:00 AM   #3
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

Depends whether you're referring to >20BB unusual all-ins, or bog standard nash +EV jams for <20BB

I don't recall watching WSOP replays and thinking anything was out of the ordinary.
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:18 PM   #4
wisem2540
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

I understand that this is just "how the game is played". I guess I am not making my point clear. Lets say I have a 2:1 chip lead over someone, and they push all in. I am holding AK.

What I struggle with is risking half my stack on essentially a coin flip. At the very best, I am dominating AQ, but any other scenario, its really 50/50. So while, in a vacuum, AK is a fine hand. And if I win, its a nice increase to my stack. It just seems super risky to play half my stack blind.

So it leaves me wondering if all of this preflop aggression turns poker is more of a Bingo game than it has to be
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:33 PM   #5
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

As noted above, the editing is to draw the attention of the very casual viewer, and an all-in increases the level of drama, thus keeping (hopefully) eyeballs on the screen.
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Old 05-15-2018, 03:22 PM   #6
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisem2540 View Post
I understand that this is just "how the game is played". I guess I am not making my point clear. Lets say I have a 2:1 chip lead over someone, and they push all in. I am holding AK.

What I struggle with is risking half my stack on essentially a coin flip. At the very best, I am dominating AQ, but any other scenario, its really 50/50. So while, in a vacuum, AK is a fine hand. And if I win, its a nice increase to my stack. It just seems super risky to play half my stack blind.

So it leaves me wondering if all of this preflop aggression turns poker is more of a Bingo game than it has to be
Again, it depends on how we get there also, and often by that point we are getting a great price on the "50/50". If you can get 1.7 to 1 on 50/50s for the rest of your life, you will be very rich.

Sometimes, you should fold AK. I played a $365 where a guy shoved 40 blinds over two limpers. Folds to me and I had AK. I was sure he would never have AQ, so he always has AK or a pocket pair, most likely IMO JJ or QQ. I folded, since it didn't make sense to call off with AK getting almost exactly 1:1. He actually showed AA after everyone folded.

Depending on the situation, though, you may be way overrating your opponents range to think you are 50/50 with AK. AK is 53/47 fave over AJ+, 88+. Opponents are often restealing much wider than that. Things like position, stacks, and opponent tendencies should be used to create a range, then compare your hand to that range, evaluating the price you are being offered.
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Old 05-15-2018, 03:34 PM   #7
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisem2540 View Post
I understand that this is just "how the game is played". I guess I am not making my point clear. Lets say I have a 2:1 chip lead over someone, and they push all in. I am holding AK.

What I struggle with is risking half my stack on essentially a coin flip. At the very best, I am dominating AQ, but any other scenario, its really 50/50. So while, in a vacuum, AK is a fine hand. And if I win, its a nice increase to my stack. It just seems super risky to play half my stack blind.

So it leaves me wondering if all of this preflop aggression turns poker is more of a Bingo game than it has to be
I am considered to be a very tight player and I am pushing in with hands worse than AQ against you. It is less risky to call with AK than it is to wait for a big enough pair that you would be comfortable calling with.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:53 PM   #8
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

Thanks for the clarity guys. BD - It's not that I'm not comfortable playing those hands, but I am watching an episode right now or someone just pushed 80 big blinds with Ace Jack, again, because of editing I didn't see the entire context of the hand, but 80 big blind leaves you quite a bit to play with. I can't imagine any scenario where I would do that

The only thing I would say is that they were down to 86 players, from 8600. The person was guaranteed over $100,000. So maybe he thought it was more beneficial to try to double
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:23 AM   #9
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

Can you give a link or video or hand history? I don't remember seeing anyone get 80 big blinds in with AJ.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:17 PM   #10
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Can you give a link or video or hand history? I don't remember seeing anyone get 80 big blinds in with AJ.
I found the hand. Day 6 2011 WSOP Episode 33 ~10min mark

Lenaghan vs Follain

This is the info I have.

Lenaghan apparently starts the hand with 160BB and 4 bets 865k with JJ.

Follain starts the hand with 80BB and 5 bets to 2.2Mil with AQo

Lenaghan moves all in for 4mil (again with JJ)

Follain calls his remaining stack all in (AQo)



To me this seems like a horribly gross overplay of AQ
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:56 AM   #11
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

depends on the 50-100 hands leading up to that point

both players could be opening/defending/3! insanely wide and looking for true value spots to rip v opponent

when both players pick up premiums in the same hand, this happens

given that actual holdings ended up being a flip, i'd suspect both were adjusting and playing very, very well

ranges aren't absolute, they're relative
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Old 05-18-2018, 12:59 PM   #12
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisem2540 View Post
Pretty straight forward question. I see a RIDICULOUS amount of preflop allins, sometimes with very marginal hands.
+1...i'd def rather see a hand where there's an open, then folds all around. We could really get into the mind of the pro OTB who let's go of 96s (w 25bbs eff.) I would especially like to see the hands where guys tank-fold pre (the suspense u know.)

Could go on but i know a couple TV execs...and they're into silly stuff like ratings, advertising revenue, entertainment, etc. I mean talk about displaced priorities...sigh
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:51 PM   #13
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

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Originally Posted by wisem2540 View Post
essentially a coin flip. At the very best
Yeesh...
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Old 05-21-2018, 08:48 AM   #14
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

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Could go on but i know a couple TV execs...and they're into silly stuff like ratings, advertising revenue, entertainment, etc. I mean talk about displaced priorities...sigh
SURELY they can understand that just like tennis has amazing long rallies, poker has amazing pre, flop, turn, river epics that combined with expert commentary can unpeel the essence of poker?!!?

Might help if said execs knew and played the game. If it ever happens they’ll make a fortune.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:38 PM   #15
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisem2540 View Post
I found the hand. Day 6 2011 WSOP Episode 33 ~10min mark

Lenaghan vs Follain

This is the info I have.

Lenaghan apparently starts the hand with 160BB and 4 bets 865k with JJ.

Follain starts the hand with 80BB and 5 bets to 2.2Mil with AQo

Lenaghan moves all in for 4mil (again with JJ)

Follain calls his remaining stack all in (AQo)



To me this seems like a horribly gross overplay of AQ
The 5bet with AQ is either the player overvaluing his hand or using it as a bluff. At that stack size 80bb deep, the player holding JJ shouldn't be that excited about getting it in unless he knows the other players overvalues his hands or can be bluffy.

It could also be that the player with JJ was super aggro in the previous hands and the guy holding AQ thought he could be 4 bet bluffing with things like A5 etc etc.

It depends.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:11 PM   #16
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

In tournament play you're going to be flipping a lot in order to win, that's basically what it comes down to.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:16 AM   #17
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

I watched that hand today, and I think the 2011 WSOP ME meta-game was a lot different to the 2015,16,17 meta-games. Players are getting a lot better.

Lenaghan was a very aggressive player from the footage, this obviously played a factor into how the hand played out. It doesn't mean these guys are playing great/perfect poker. There was a lot of aggressive preflop action in 2011, you're correct. But watch the later years footage and you won't find these sorts of blunders (160bb all-in pre pots with marginal holdings).
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:55 PM   #18
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Re: Rewatching alot of WSOP, why so many preflop allins?

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Originally Posted by oldsilver View Post
SURELY they can understand that just like tennis has amazing long rallies, poker has amazing pre, flop, turn, river epics that combined with expert commentary can unpeel the essence of poker?!!?
I'm more of a Wimbledon guy myself but there's def something to be said for Roland-Garros and the romance of that Red Clay...
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