Hi everyone,


I would love for someone to clear up optimal 3-bet shoving for short stacks in mtt's for me since it has been confusing me lately.

So holdem resources calculator suggest that if we are playing 25bb's effective in a full ring mtt(let's pretend ICM isn't a factor) with 10% ante and open to 2bb with ~30% of hands from the lojack, the button should 3-bet shove top 15% of hands, does this range include bluffs? I thought that you should have strong hands and balance it out with weak hands. The range provided by holdemresources 3-bet range are only hands that are +ev . My goal is to have a optimal 3-betting range that is perfectly balanced between value/bluffs. I'm tired and can't think clearly, would love if someone could help me figure this out.
Thanks

Did you take out the top top of your 3bship range? I assume you are not 3b-shipping AA-KK-QQ but 3bet to induce right? Do that and see what happens in HRC

If we never 3-bet shove AA-QQ then we can never have nutted hands when we shove. I'm just asking whats the optimal play theoretically. Let's pretend for anyone reading that the 3-bettor can only shove or fold.

I would try and not be so stubborn. Only vs people without an edge would and should you jam the toptop of your range. If you take out the very top it changes what you can shove. Try to have an open mind. If you take out the top the numbers (EV) of the lesser part of your range changes totally

is like trying to make white exist without black

It's not about being stubborn I just like to study optimal play and would like to know what it is in this case. I appreciate you taking your time to respond btw.

I think you may be confused about this: GTO/Nash ranges never contain -EV hands, every single hand in a Nash range needs to be at least 0EV (when played against the equilibrium strategies).

Yes it should include bluffs, there is a point where even if you include bluffs in your 15% you're EV is still positive. And it depends on what type of bluff, semi v total bluff

Card Runners EV is a good resource to show this.

Interesting, I will check it out for sure, thanks a lot! So perhaps holdem resources ranges are just a depolarized range, seems like it.

I think u cleared it up a bit for me. The reason I get confused is because I have read the articles on optimal 3-bet at donkr where they sort of suggest that you should have polarized ranges. If u don't mind could you link me a good read on equilibrium strategies that are legit?

Maybe they were talking about a different scenario on donkr, you didn't really clarify what exactly you calculated in OP. You will definitely see polarized ranges in some circumstances, but all hands still need to play their highest EV action in equilibrium.

You would expect a polarized 3-bet range from calculations if:
*) 3-bettor also has the option to flat AND
*) Original raiser has the option to 4-bet but never/rarely flats

e.g.:
http://hands.holdemresources.net/?id=orqvjk53orvl