Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-09-2018, 08:06 PM   #1
theman200050
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Vegas
Posts: 106
LOFOD

Blinds 25/50. All stacks even around 10k. This is like the 15th hand of the tournament.

UTG opens to 150, 4 callers and I'm in the big blind with Ac7h. I complete, and flop is Ah9c7c. I check first to act, UTG cbets 500 into 900. A middle position player calls, and I call.

Turn 5c. I check, UTG bets 1500 into 2400. MP player makes it 3500. I ???



I'm near certain the MP player has a flush. I'm near certain UTG has a hand he's continuing with, if he cbet into 5 people, and then bet the turn when 2 called. Either a set, a flush, or a pair with a flush draw. Doesn't seem like the type at all that opens A9s UTG.

Flop play is obv debatable but I'm solely worried about the turn here
theman200050 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 08:16 PM   #2
3for3poker
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 355
Re: LOFOD

Seems like an easy fold.
3for3poker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 08:25 PM   #3
UntimelyBluff
centurion
 
UntimelyBluff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Around, somewhere
Posts: 193
Re: LOFOD

Now it seems like an easy fold with the action, but I would have cr’d the flop, and before that I would have folded pre flop as A7o against a UTG raiser and 5 callers can get you into trouble, A7 does very poorly multiway I can understand why you called though cause of odds but unless you have exceptional post flop skills you’ll end up torching too much money with just calling to complete, and get into a lot of difficult spots against the more experienced players. Always have a plan before you play the hand.

Last edited by UntimelyBluff; 07-09-2018 at 08:26 PM. Reason: Grammer
UntimelyBluff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 01:20 AM   #4
erc007
veteran
 
erc007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Running towards Nothing...again and
Posts: 2,019
Re: LOFOD

fold pre...but pls keep regging 1k MTTs...
erc007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 07:26 AM   #5
cizixap
grinder
 
cizixap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Variance thou art a heartless b*tch
Posts: 630
Re: LOFOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by erc007 View Post
fold pre...but pls keep regging 1k MTTs...
Question : is it a joke?
cizixap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 10:28 AM   #6
Beachman42
Pooh-Bah
 
Beachman42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Havana Daydreamin'
Posts: 3,967
Re: LOFOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by theman200050 View Post
Blinds 25/50. All stacks even around 10k. This is like the 15th hand of the tournament.

UTG opens to 150,

Pre-Flop play is obv debatable
but I'm solely worried about the turn here
FYP
Beachman42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2018, 07:31 PM   #7
theman200050
centurion
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Vegas
Posts: 106
Re: LOFOD

Ok I wasn't gonna reply to it, but I like to have fun, so I'll bite

I call pre because I'm getting 8 to 1, w 200bbs, and I close the action, in a live MTT with human beings. I don't feel anyone that is at THIS table is going to " outplay me", in a 6 way pre ante pot, with 200bbs. If Moorman was at my table I might fold. He wasn't. And I'm never going broke on an AK7 board w 200bbs. You guys aren't that good...

A7 is an easy fold on almost all boards. I invest 1.5% of my stack here. I don't see pre flop as a problem, but I understand it avoids situations like this. I may be over estimating my edge when 200 bbs deep like this, but this is a live MTT.

But on to the flop. I didn't wanna give "live reads" on any of the players because I wanted for someone to just do the math. But, UTG bets Ah97cc flop OOP vs 4 callers who haven't acted. I put him on AK AQ AJ, sets, and KQcc, KJcc, and maybe QJcc, TJcc,. He seemed like more of the passive type. I don't think he's 3x opening UTG w other flush draws, or A9 or A7.

The MP calls and he was a middle aged guy, and I'll just say that he did not look like a professional poker player. He was looser and I felt his range was much wider. I could see him calling with 87hh on this board, even JTo, honestly. He seemed weak but with 2 players who hadn't acted yet, I'm not sure if he raises his sets here either. It's still the 15th hand of the tourney. It gets to me and I have the decision to raise. If I raise here, my standard would be around 2500

If I do that, that would leave me with a little over a pot sized bet on the turn if one player calls, and 2/3 if both call. This is the 15th hand of a tourney with 60 minute levels. I was trying to take more passive lines, especially at the table I was at, with only 2 players who appeared to be decent.

And the main point I didn't raise on the flop, I wasn't sure if I was ahead. When the UTG cbets into 4 people on A97cc, I take him as very strong. I would range his cbet range like this:

AA 99 77 = cbets 100%
AK AQ AJ = cbets 80%
KQcc, KJcc, QJcc, TJcc = cbets 50% and maybe less. Players fear the top pair and nut flush draw where they are drawing dead. He 100% seemed like that player. These are the only hands I think he cbets.

When he cbets, I'm not sure where I'm at, so I call. If I'm behind, I'm far behind. And I'll have invested 6% of my stack by calling. Versus putting in near 30% of my stack in on a raise where I'm not even sure where I'm at.



I posted this on here because at the table, I really wasn't sure of the spot and took way longer than I normally do. Just wanted to get any insight. Everyone saying fold pre is like telling someone to invest in bitcoin 5 years ago. Thanks, I gotcha. Still playing a live MTT where human error comes into play at a rate that I would say is substantial, at least from what I've seen. If the flop comes 772 and utg has Kings, I could double up without a doubt in my mind. I play a style where they pay me off. Because again, they're human. For instance.


If you never fold your big blind early in a tournament, people will take that as you defend your big blind 100%, and may open at a lesser rate later in the tourney, thinking you're going play back at them. If you planned this out, then you've gotten them to error from their strategy, because they're human. The better the player, the less this will be true. But I've been at many tables where someone says, "He never folds his big blind" and folds while I'm in the big blind. This is what I mean by we're human. You can get people to do or think certain things, by how you act. I wan't people not to think, that I'm folding A7o in the big blind, getting 8 to 1, with 200 bbs and closing the action.


I haven't played much live poker in the past couple years, so I'm definitely rusty. But the "keep regging 1k mtt's" comment is funny. I wondered what happened to the High Stakes MTT forum, and now I'm reminded.


If anyone was wondering tho, I folded the turn, and UTG called and ended up having AdQc, and MP player had K3cc. The river was a J of spades, so it was Ah9c7c5cJs board, and it went check check on the river. The MP player said "just in case you have the nut flush, I check back". Yea, I guess I over thought the hand but I don't see people play good when I play live poker. The exact opposite actually. And hands like this, make me think that calling with A7o in the big blind, getting 8 to 1 on a call, with 200bbs, versus these opponents, could be profitable.

I guess I could be wrong tho. Thanks for the advice
theman200050 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2018, 10:13 AM   #8
Beachman42
Pooh-Bah
 
Beachman42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Havana Daydreamin'
Posts: 3,967
Re: LOFOD

^^^ tl;dr BUT:

one strategic observation - if you are going to play very passively post flop as your action above indicates, play much tighter pre. you would have saved over 5% of your stack which is still significant even in the first level of a super soft donkament.
Beachman42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2018, 06:25 AM   #9
Panny1
old hand
 
Panny1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: going down to la-la-land
Posts: 1,383
Re: LOFOD

Pre isn't really debatable tbh, flatting is superstd with those odds. Yeah it's not a great hand multiway but it's not as if we have to station A-hi-Boards all the way.

Flop is an easy raise though, especially 3-way. There are too many Turncards that suck and/or kill our action
Panny1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 12:23 AM   #10
RalphWaldoEmerson
Pooh-Bah
 
RalphWaldoEmerson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: the ocean
Posts: 4,928
Re: LOFOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panny1 View Post
Yeah it's not a great hand multiway but it's not as if we have to station A-hi-Boards all the way.
It's a terrible hand MW and reverse implied odds on A hi boards is not that relevant in a 5way spot anyway (compared to HU or 3ways).
I would like to see more evidence to support your POV
RalphWaldoEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 04:20 AM   #11
Panny1
old hand
 
Panny1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: going down to la-la-land
Posts: 1,383
Re: LOFOD

regarding Flop or Preflop?
Panny1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 08:23 AM   #12
nonsimplesimon
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
nonsimplesimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: OTR
Posts: 8,220
Re: LOFOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by RalphWaldoEmerson View Post
It's a terrible hand MW and reverse implied odds on A hi boards is not that relevant in a 5way spot anyway (compared to HU or 3ways).
I would like to see more evidence to support your POV
This.

What is LOFOD?
nonsimplesimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 12:53 PM   #13
RalphWaldoEmerson
Pooh-Bah
 
RalphWaldoEmerson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: the ocean
Posts: 4,928
Re: LOFOD

Sup NSS

The little one for one drop
RalphWaldoEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 01:03 PM   #14
RalphWaldoEmerson
Pooh-Bah
 
RalphWaldoEmerson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: the ocean
Posts: 4,928
Re: LOFOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panny1 View Post
regarding Flop or Preflop?
preflop
RalphWaldoEmerson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 02:06 PM   #15
erc007
veteran
 
erc007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Running towards Nothing...again and
Posts: 2,019
Re: LOFOD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panny1 View Post
Pre isn't really debatable tbh, flatting is superstd with those odds. Yeah it's not a great hand multiway but it's not as if we have to station A-hi-Boards all the way.
1st off...appreciate ur honesty (too many levels around forums these days.)

RE: your exemption (from having to station Ahigh boards)...just wondering how u randomize ur explofolds?

For example EP cbets on Ah6c5c callers all fold...back to you...then barrels Qd turn for 70% pot...u have As7c

Call and call blank rivers?
Call and call all non club rivers?
Call turn fold all rivers?
Fold turn (utilizing ur non-station exemption)
Other (fold flop maybe)
erc007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 03:18 PM   #16
2pairsof2s
adept
 
2pairsof2s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cashier screen at Pokerstars
Posts: 1,011
Re: LOFOD

I think calling pre is one of those "yes you should, no you shouldn't" arguments that don't lead anywhere.

I think that once you made a hand on the flop you did yourself a disservice by playing so passively. Instead of doing something proactive you let them take you on a ride. A check raise was an option you could have used. Another option would be a Donk-bet.

The Donk-bet won't be a popular choice here but it is one I would consider from early position with so many runners. Putting out a check raise might be committing more chips than you should with your good-not-great hand at this early stage of the tournament. Instead, put out a hefty Donk-bet, take it down as often as not, move on. Maybe this is an old-school play, you don't see it too often these days, but in some circumstances it remains an effective move.

One of the old-school poker ideas that still applies today is that you are always better off making the villains react to what you do than you are sitting back reacting to them. Check calling the flop was not an active choice. Instead of driving the action, you were sitting back reacting. As a result, you turned what was a pretty good hand into a bluff catcher. The line you took painted you into a corner.

Last edited by 2pairsof2s; 07-14-2018 at 03:25 PM.
2pairsof2s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2018, 11:43 PM   #17
wait
journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 258
Re: LOFOD

Answer: fold pre

Reasoning: see how you played this hand
wait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 01:00 PM   #18
mjones07
grinder
 
mjones07's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Whorlando
Posts: 595
Re: LOFOD

I think c/r on flop would be ideal. You are way ahead of both their ranges

V1 range: AA, AK-AJ, KJcc, KQcc, 99, 77? (I think cbetting much else from his PF opening range would be spew 5 ways and you are blocking AA and 77 combos)

V2: Ax, flush draws, straight draws? (any set or 2pair hand I think he would be raising for value/protection although I'm curious if were you the only person still to act behind him?)

Set up the turn jam imo with c/r to 2500-3000
mjones07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 04:01 PM   #19
Abcdonkhere
newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 30
Re: LOFOD

I like your play pre.

On the flop, did you consider a check raise? Might take it down right there or fold if you get jammed on.

Turn, as played, is a pretty obvious fold to me.
Abcdonkhere is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online