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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 01-08-2018, 06:30 PM   #1
impulse718
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late stages in a large online MTT

there are 26 left in the 265 ACR 1m guarantee

9 handed, dealt AQdd utg. have 16 bb left.

is it better to min raise pre or jam pre.


if you do min raise do you fold to a 3bet
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:38 PM   #2
persianpunisher
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

Raise/GII (Unless 3-bettor is MEGA NIT). AQo I probably just open jam.
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:40 PM   #3
impulse718
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

i'm basically never not getting it in pre right?
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:45 PM   #4
vyken111
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

I'd just be open-jamming. You'd have to have a sick read on someone to open/fold, unless you're intentionally trying to ladder.
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:50 PM   #5
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by impulse718 View Post
i'm basically never not getting it in pre right?
I mean, if there's a 4-bet you can fold or a SUPER NIT 3-bets you. Otherwise, you were just dealt a game over.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:03 PM   #6
Cursleyy
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

I prefer raise call all in here, if you just jam 16bbs you're unlikely to get any calls and if you do get called you only get called by same or better. Were as by raising you can potentially get a few light shoves as you could be raise folding a 16bb stack.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:16 PM   #7
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by Cursleyy View Post
I prefer raise call all in here, if you just jam 16bbs you're unlikely to get any calls and if you do get called you only get called by same or better. Were as by raising you can potentially get a few light shoves as you could be raise folding a 16bb stack.
This is bad reasoning. We don't shove just to get called and win.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:27 PM   #8
Cursleyy
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
This is bad reasoning. We don't shove just to get called and win.
I just don't see the point in just shoving 16bbs, it seems a waste if we are wanting players to call or shove with worse?
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:53 PM   #9
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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I just don't see the point in just shoving 16bbs, it seems a waste if we are wanting players to call or shove with worse?
All the EV calculators will tell you this is a +EV shove. raise/calling just might be more EV (As I think it is with AQdd).

And I don't think we necessarily want to be getting it in pre in this spot, that's why I don't mind shoving to maximize FE with a hand that has good equity when called.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:53 PM   #10
impulse718
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

ultimately i'm only asking the question because of the results, but in the moment i thought it was the right play

i jammed pre and big stack woke up with AA

game over.



i don't think i'm ever folding pre after a min raise. but i also never considered that we might be getting somebody to shove light behind
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:03 PM   #11
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by impulse718 View Post
ultimately i'm only asking the question because of the results, but in the moment i thought it was the right play

i jammed pre and big stack woke up with AA

game over.



i don't think i'm ever folding pre after a min raise. but i also never considered that we might be getting somebody to shove light behind
Yeah, just a cooler man. Sucks when these happen this deep. I lost a huge flip in the Bovada 100k on the FT bubble last night (Probably not any consolation, but I'm still a little sour ^_^). Just gotta roll with the punches. You made a fine play.
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:14 PM   #12
Cursleyy
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
All the EV calculators will tell you this is a +EV shove. raise/calling just might be more EV (As I think it is with AQdd).

And I don't think we necessarily want to be getting it in pre in this spot, that's why I don't mind shoving to maximize FE with a hand that has good equity when called.
Yeah sorry, I wasn't saying that it wasn't profitable to open shove. I was just saying we would have a lot of hands just folding out that we want in.
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Old 01-09-2018, 01:18 AM   #13
Percyeus86
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

I don't think we have to shove here for 16bb's especially for our tournament life.

An UTG min raise/2.25x from a 16bb stack looks VERY strong indeed. If we can do that, we are only getting 4bet induced by hands that are beating us and/or dominating.

Totally see that it's probably a +EV spot just to jam, but I like a 2.25x raise here, and we can make a very disciplined fold should we get 4bet. 16bb is right on the fence though so I think this spot is entirely situational.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:10 AM   #14
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by Percyeus86 View Post
I don't think we have to shove here for 16bb's especially for our tournament life.

An UTG min raise/2.25x from a 16bb stack looks VERY strong indeed. If we can do that, we are only getting 4bet induced by hands that are beating us and/or dominating.

Totally see that it's probably a +EV spot just to jam, but I like a 2.25x raise here, and we can make a very disciplined fold should we get 4bet. 16bb is right on the fence though so I think this spot is entirely situational.
Are you talking about a 3-bet followed by a cold 4-bet or just a 3-bet? We should not fold to a 3-bet with AQdd.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:20 AM   #15
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
Are you talking about a 3-bet followed by a cold 4-bet or just a 3-bet? We should not fold to a 3-bet with AQdd.
Got my wires crossed.

I meant 3bet, not 4bet.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:54 AM   #16
3for3poker
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

What are your plans for when you are flatted in position and miss the flop? 14BB with a 6BB pot kinda sucks.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:13 PM   #17
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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What are your plans for when you are flatted in position and miss the flop? 14BB with a 6BB pot kinda sucks.
If we miss, we miss - we can fold still. If we shove and miss, we are out anyway.
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Old 01-09-2018, 12:20 PM   #18
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
All the EV calculators will tell you this is a +EV shove. raise/calling just might be more EV (As I think it is with AQdd).

And I don't think we necessarily want to be getting it in pre in this spot, that's why I don't mind shoving to maximize FE with a hand that has good equity when called.
I agree with this. In MP/LP I'm happy raise/calling to induce wide resteal shoves from small Aces or Broadway hands. But nobody is restealing wide against a utg open. If you raise you risk letting a slew of hands see a flop and you miss 2/3 of the time. Put max pressure on your opponents by shoving; they can only call with the best of their ranges.

If ICM was a big consideration I would take the lower variance route but with 26 left it's play to win.

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Old 01-09-2018, 03:01 PM   #19
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by 3for3poker View Post
What are your plans for when you are flatted in position and miss the flop? 14BB with a 6BB pot kinda sucks.
Depends on board texture.
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Old 01-13-2018, 06:56 AM   #20
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

All in, maximum fold equity, don't allow someone else to see a flop for cheap or shove on you. I also don't think it's close and shoving is by far the best option in this spot.

You want to be folding out their good and marginal hands that have equity against you and steal blinds and antes or go heads up w significant equity for a double up. If you can get someone to fold a pair you've done quite well just by taking the pot preflop. Esp with antes you should just be aggressively shoving to steal blinds, and AQs is definitely good enough to include in your shoving range PF, even from utg.

Last edited by jgrimmer44; 01-13-2018 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:07 AM   #21
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

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Originally Posted by Cursleyy View Post
I just don't see the point in just shoving 16bbs, it seems a waste if we are wanting players to call or shove with worse?
The point is that we can steal 2.5 big blinds with no risk if we can take the pot preflop by making everyone else fold. In order to maximize the chance of that happening, we need to go all in to maximize our fold equity.

Making everyone else fold is not a bad result, esp if we can push out hands that would have significant equity against us.
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Old 01-13-2018, 04:48 PM   #22
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

I like to have polarized ranges in these spots where I primarily shove, but have some hands I raise with the intention of calling off and some hands I raise intending to fold to aggression. I think at 16BB I'd lean towards maybe just raise/gii with AK and JJ+, but I can see AQs being ok as well. I don't think you can go too terribly wrong either way.
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Old 01-13-2018, 07:10 PM   #23
wowsooooted
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Re: late stages in a large online MTT

I would shove it in here 16bb AQs maybe get called by AJ or flips
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