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late stages in a large online MTT

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01-08-2018 , 06:30 PM

impulse718

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3

there are 26 left in the 265 ACR 1m guarantee

9 handed, dealt AQdd utg. have 16 bb left.

is it better to min raise pre or jam pre.

if you do min raise do you fold to a 3bet

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01-08-2018 , 06:38 PM

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,818

Raise/GII (Unless 3-bettor is MEGA NIT). AQo I probably just open jam.

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01-08-2018 , 06:40 PM

impulse718

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3

i'm basically never not getting it in pre right?

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01-08-2018 , 06:45 PM

vyken111

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 572

I'd just be open-jamming. You'd have to have a sick read on someone to open/fold, unless you're intentionally trying to ladder.

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01-08-2018 , 06:50 PM

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,818

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulse718

i'm basically never not getting it in pre right?

I mean, if there's a 4-bet you can fold or a SUPER NIT 3-bets you. Otherwise, you were just dealt a game over.

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01-08-2018 , 07:03 PM

Cursleyy

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 94

I prefer raise call all in here, if you just jam 16bbs you're unlikely to get any calls and if you do get called you only get called by same or better. Were as by raising you can potentially get a few light shoves as you could be raise folding a 16bb stack.

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01-08-2018 , 07:16 PM

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,818

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursleyy

This is bad reasoning. We don't shove just to get called and win.

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01-08-2018 , 07:27 PM

Cursleyy

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by persianpunisher

This is bad reasoning. We don't shove just to get called and win.

I just don't see the point in just shoving 16bbs, it seems a waste if we are wanting players to call or shove with worse?

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01-08-2018 , 08:53 PM

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,818

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursleyy

I just don't see the point in just shoving 16bbs, it seems a waste if we are wanting players to call or shove with worse?

All the EV calculators will tell you this is a +EV shove. raise/calling just might be more EV (As I think it is with AQdd).

And I don't think we necessarily want to be getting it in pre in this spot, that's why I don't mind shoving to maximize FE with a hand that has good equity when called.

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01-08-2018 , 08:53 PM

#10

impulse718

stranger

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3

ultimately i'm only asking the question because of the results, but in the moment i thought it was the right play

i jammed pre and big stack woke up with AA

game over.

i don't think i'm ever folding pre after a min raise. but i also never considered that we might be getting somebody to shove light behind

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01-08-2018 , 09:03 PM

#11

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,818

Quote:

Originally Posted by impulse718

Yeah, just a cooler man. Sucks when these happen this deep. I lost a huge flip in the Bovada 100k on the FT bubble last night (Probably not any consolation, but I'm still a little sour ^_^). Just gotta roll with the punches. You made a fine play.

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01-08-2018 , 09:14 PM

#12

Cursleyy

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 94

Quote:

Originally Posted by persianpunisher

Yeah sorry, I wasn't saying that it wasn't profitable to open shove. I was just saying we would have a lot of hands just folding out that we want in.

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01-09-2018 , 01:18 AM

#13

Percyeus86

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 623

I don't think we have to shove here for 16bb's especially for our tournament life.

An UTG min raise/2.25x from a 16bb stack looks VERY strong indeed. If we can do that, we are only getting 4bet induced by hands that are beating us and/or dominating.

Totally see that it's probably a +EV spot just to jam, but I like a 2.25x raise here, and we can make a very disciplined fold should we get 4bet. 16bb is right on the fence though so I think this spot is entirely situational.

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01-09-2018 , 11:10 AM

#14

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,818

Quote:

Originally Posted by Percyeus86

Are you talking about a 3-bet followed by a cold 4-bet or just a 3-bet? We should not fold to a 3-bet with AQdd.

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01-09-2018 , 11:20 AM

#15

Percyeus86

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 623

Quote:

Originally Posted by persianpunisher

Are you talking about a 3-bet followed by a cold 4-bet or just a 3-bet? We should not fold to a 3-bet with AQdd.

Got my wires crossed.

I meant 3bet, not 4bet.

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01-09-2018 , 11:54 AM

#16

3for3poker

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 1,502

What are your plans for when you are flatted in position and miss the flop? 14BB with a 6BB pot kinda sucks.

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01-09-2018 , 12:13 PM

#17

Percyeus86

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 623

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3for3poker

What are your plans for when you are flatted in position and miss the flop? 14BB with a 6BB pot kinda sucks.

If we miss, we miss - we can fold still. If we shove and miss, we are out anyway.

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01-09-2018 , 12:20 PM

#18

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,434

Quote:

Originally Posted by persianpunisher

I agree with this. In MP/LP I'm happy raise/calling to induce wide resteal shoves from small Aces or Broadway hands. But nobody is restealing wide against a utg open. If you raise you risk letting a slew of hands see a flop and you miss 2/3 of the time. Put max pressure on your opponents by shoving; they can only call with the best of their ranges.

If ICM was a big consideration I would take the lower variance route but with 26 left it's play to win.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

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01-09-2018 , 03:01 PM

#19

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,818

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3for3poker

What are your plans for when you are flatted in position and miss the flop? 14BB with a 6BB pot kinda sucks.

Depends on board texture.

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01-13-2018 , 06:56 AM

#20

jgrimmer44

adept

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 781

All in, maximum fold equity, don't allow someone else to see a flop for cheap or shove on you. I also don't think it's close and shoving is by far the best option in this spot.

You want to be folding out their good and marginal hands that have equity against you and steal blinds and antes or go heads up w significant equity for a double up. If you can get someone to fold a pair you've done quite well just by taking the pot preflop. Esp with antes you should just be aggressively shoving to steal blinds, and AQs is definitely good enough to include in your shoving range PF, even from utg.

Last edited by jgrimmer44; 01-13-2018 at 07:03 AM.

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01-13-2018 , 07:07 AM

#21

jgrimmer44

adept

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 781

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursleyy

I just don't see the point in just shoving 16bbs, it seems a waste if we are wanting players to call or shove with worse?

The point is that we can steal 2.5 big blinds with no risk if we can take the pot preflop by making everyone else fold. In order to maximize the chance of that happening, we need to go all in to maximize our fold equity.

Making everyone else fold is not a bad result, esp if we can push out hands that would have significant equity against us.

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01-13-2018 , 04:48 PM

#22

jpgiro

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 1,431

I like to have polarized ranges in these spots where I primarily shove, but have some hands I raise with the intention of calling off and some hands I raise intending to fold to aggression. I think at 16BB I'd lean towards maybe just raise/gii with AK and JJ+, but I can see AQs being ok as well. I don't think you can go too terribly wrong either way.

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01-13-2018 , 07:10 PM

#23

wowsooooted

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 5,077

I would shove it in here 16bb AQs maybe get called by AJ or flips

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