Quote:
Originally Posted by persianpunisher
I have seen preflop GTO trees(Raise Your Edge) and 200bb deep vs UTG open with no antes is not close to a 100% 3-bet. You're not getting tons of EV 3-betting a UTG raiser this early in a tournament because ranges in general should be tighter because there are no antes and we're super deep.
Once 4-bet we're still playing IP post flop and the immediate equity is over 6% vs JJ+ AK. You can fold all you want, but it's bad.
Even if V is opening a measly 4% we're beating half his range. What do you think V's opening range is here? And what is your 3betting range? Your flatting range?
Neither of your posts actually relate to the discussion about which preflop action is preferable, nor do they come close to explaining how flatting would be higher EV. It's akin to a math professor writing some theorem on the board and saying "trust me, it's true" before speeding off at noon to play ultimate frisbee on the quad. OK, why are we not gaining EV? What are the real, first principles reasons why flatting is preferable, i.e. higher EV? No other metric besides EV matters when making this decision.
How is flatting preferable with respect to building a pot with the top of our range (JJ being a top 2% hand--flatting is obviously not preferable bc less money goes in the pot immediately)? And if you're worried about "bloating" a pot in this spot, you're just being MUBSY. We are IP with a premium hand, right?
How is flatting preferable wrt equity denial vs the opener? Vs the blinds? (it's impossible for flatting to be preferable along this metric bc flatting is passive and therefore denies zero equity)
How is flatting preferable wrt how we're building our VPIPing ranges here at all, and thus how the range advantage is distributed postflop? (We rarely have the RA postflop when we flat btw, even if we include JJ in our range)
So, again, I ask how is flatting higher EV?
Specifically referring to GTO trees, I personally don't ever trust others' work unless I know everything about how those trees are created. These preflop trees (which when action isn't being closed are just clumsy approximations anyway bc to my knowledge no multiway solvers exist yet--hence why you shouldn't trust anyone's but your own) are highly sensitive to how many flops they're trained on and what postflop strategies have been specified and also runtime, and on top of all that the assumptions underlying the players still to act. You sure you were even looking at trees for a BTNvUTG configuration? I would be especially wary of freely available trees because this is highly valuable information that doesn't come cheap to those who seek it and no one is giving it away for free, no one is that nice, at least no one outside of this forum, certainly no one who's taking payment to teach you how to play poker. And if you're paying for this info, you're better off spending your money on PIO and renting your own dedicated server to run/approximate these trees yourself and just consuming yourself with that environment if you wanna go down the GTO route. But before I beat a dead horse any GTO preflop discussion in this particular spot is a sideshow anyway because, again, no multiway solvers exist.
But it's just common sense that if V is opening anywhere beyond a crazy tight range then we're ahead of that range, IP, and very needful of equity denial. And we monotonically benefit from buying the RA, too. Hence, we 3bet. How are we not gaining EV from 3betting (without responding with "we're just not")?
And our immediate equity (whatever that actually means in this context--you seem to be conflating it with hot/cold equity going to the river) is NOT 6% in excess of BE for a call, that assumes the hand is checked down and ignores all postflop play considerations. An absurd assumption. Our position matter little, anyway, if our range is being crushed by his. On the other hand, being IP in a 3bet pot (as the 3bettor vs a 4bet pot as the 4bet caller) is HUGELY advantageous.
As I pointed out we're not getting to the river OR showdown often enough to realize enough equity. You actually advocated folding the turn! Calling pre assuming you have some sick 6% equity edge and then folding turn on one of the safest runouts possible is a huge contradiction. In what universe are we realizing enough equity to make this work?
I think I can be convinced to call the 4bet IF you can guarantee we stack V 100% of the time we're ahead--but it would take a Herculean effort to convince me to flat the open, and I'd be really curious to hear your arguments against the reasons I've outlined as to why we should ALWAYS be 3betting here.
Last edited by EggsMcBluffin; 03-06-2019 at 02:14 PM.