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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 03-15-2017, 12:09 PM   #1
chrissuds
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JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Hi all,

This hand happened with about 17 of 60 players remaining 3 and a 1/2 hours into a 5 hour 30 minute tournament.

Villain and I have a history. I had the goods against him twice very early in the tournament, and he made big folds stating once that he didn't want to be eliminated this early on. One time he 3 bet my UTG raise on the button and folded to my 4 bet saying he had AQ very early on. He busted and then re-entered. He was moved back to our table about an hour before this hand. Under the assumption that he was a nit, I bet into him light many times. He was calling my preflop raises at a fairly high frequency and then giving up to most of my cbets. He also had not shown a bluff or been caught bluffing when we were playing together.

I played this hand with him and I know I messed up big time, but I'm not exactly sure how I should have played it. Feedback would be appreciated.

Hero (MP): 27000 (16.875 BB) Villain (SB): 54000 (33.75 BB)
Blinds 800/1600 with 100 ante

Hero in MP raises to 5000 with JJ...Folds to SB. SB calls, BB calls

Flop: Q 4 4

SB check, BB check, Hero check

Turn: 6

SB bet 7000, BB fold, Hero Fold

I don't really know what I was thinking. I just thought he was rarely bluffing. I thought about shoving flop or c betting, but was afraid of running into a Q. Also, not sure if I should have called turn. Also, not sure if I should have just shoved pre flop.

Let me know what you guys think I should have done in this situation. Any help would be appreciated.

CS

P.S. villiain showed Ace of clubs and mucked the other card
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:34 PM   #2
2pairsof2s
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Pretty good flop to c-bet IMO. Never checking the flop here.
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:40 PM   #3
Shortfuse
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Flop check is totally fine, calling turn now.
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Old 03-15-2017, 04:13 PM   #4
Afteryastack
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Check flop looks OK to me. But call turn. Pretty nitty to fold the turn here.

Regardless of the above I would be shoving this pre 100% of the time with 16BB


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Old 03-15-2017, 06:34 PM   #5
Mr Rick
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

I would raise pre-flop to 3500. Then against two players I would probably make it 4000 on the flop.

On rare occasions I would shove here pre-flop.
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Old 03-15-2017, 09:30 PM   #6
hitchens97
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

I think shoving pre is worthy of consideration.

15-20BB I've tended not to, but I've started to do it a little bit more, especially when I think the players are good or better than me, where they may flat in position, and there's a chance they may outplay me. It's always EV here for JJ, and it just takes a lot of risk out and you don't get into awkward stack size situations.

Interested in thoughts on this 15-20BB range, and how people way up shove vs. regular raise.
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Old 03-16-2017, 08:59 AM   #7
WorldResident
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Preflop is plain bad. You either shove or open a max of 2,5x the big blind. Why did you make it this big? Personally I would shove to avoid these kind of situations.

As played. I would check the flop as well. Cbetting into 2 people with a Q on the flop doesn't seem that good. Especially with the SB floating.

It feels weak but I don't think you can call for 1/3th of your stack. Think about the hands he would bet here. You block QJ. AK/AQ would gii preflop I would say. AA, KK, AJs, KQ, QQ, TT, 99 and 88 are in his floating range. So there are just too many combinations which beat you. You only beat AJhh, TT, 99 and 88.
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Old 03-16-2017, 01:02 PM   #8
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

In a live setting, I wouldn't shove pre. Although it is obviously fine to just shove. But there is more value in a small raise.
But I would raise smaller indeed. Raising more than 3BB with such a small stack is not ideal at all. Maybe 2.5x in a live setting. But 2.3 or something like that is fine as well.

I don't mind the flop check at all. Being against two players makes a case for a bet, but you need a checking range as well that includes hands that will call at least one bet in future streets. If I bet, I would bet small (1/3rd pot).
Once we check turn, we need to be able to call at least one street or we just abandon the pot because there is a queen on the board.
As played, the problem is that the bet is so big! But we allowed that by raising so big preflop. I still call the turn as played though. And fold to a river bet, gg and all.
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Old 03-16-2017, 01:10 PM   #9
chrissuds
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Hey guys,

Thanks for the help. I think pre flop sizing was really bad which set me up for failure the rest of the hand.

I feel like the best line in this situation might have been a smaller raise preflop to get action from the worse hands that SB was most likely calling me with preflop and then a cbet. I would then give up to any aggression or try to check it down if I received a caller.

Also, I think a jam would have been ok pre flop.

Let me know if anyone disagrees.

Chris
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Old 03-16-2017, 05:00 PM   #10
jjpregler
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Preflop, this is just outside of an open shove for me. Consider that the antes are small here. If the antes were instead 200, that does make shoving preflop slightly better. But if I don't shove, I am raising to 3.3k.

Checking or betting the flop are both valid choices, however, if you check the flop, you have to at least call the turn when a blank hits.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:29 AM   #11
Mr Rick
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissuds View Post
Hey guys,

Thanks for the help. I think pre flop sizing was really bad which set me up for failure the rest of the hand.

I feel like the best line in this situation might have been a smaller raise preflop to get action from the worse hands that SB was most likely calling me with preflop and then a cbet. I would then give up to any aggression or try to check it down if I received a caller.

Also, I think a jam would have been ok pre flop.

Let me know if anyone disagrees.

Chris
When I think about jamming pre-flop with > 15 blinds the most important factor to consider is the strength of opposition.

If I am being outplayed consistently post flop or see that the quality of players is significantly stronger than I am or if I think I am one of the worst players at the table, I would jam in this spot pre-flop. It could also be that the players to my left are giving me problems post flop and I think that I have to take that option away from them.

The other factor that I consider is how long it will be until the levels change and would that change put me under 15 blinds. Often with one or two hands to go before the level will change, I will shove in spots like these. As an added benefit I think that it makes it look like I will shove wider than 15 blinds in general because most people won't notice this particular context. So for future reference with regs at the table it can help.
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Old 03-17-2017, 07:30 PM   #12
Madsaac
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Re: JJ in late stages of live $165 tournament

No I don't like a shove pre there.....normally.

Yeah make pre open a little smaller. A cbet is good there for protection (deny equity) plus value (build pot) but not to big so you can get away from the hand (if you want) if he bets the queen or a king, ace or heart turns, if not shove the turn.
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