Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays?

06-03-2019 , 08:28 AM
Basically what the title says. Some days I'm constantly aware of my stack size related to the blinds and every other player at the table, mine and other players image and when I face a decision I consider all available information and factors. Other days I'm thinking "it's not possible for him to be bluffing here, I should fold" and I've already clicked call like.. subconsciously. Basically I'm playing like a monkey in certain spots considering my emotion and desire to call or raise rather than all relevant factors.

Both sessions i am well rested and all external conditions are similar and so far I've failed to notice what is different. So I was wondering has anybody figured out a way to put random spews to a minimum or eliminate them altogether, or to put it another way - how to be focused and mindful when your mind is drifting away from the table for reasons unknown. I find this extremely important and more so than any other aspect of improving.
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 08:51 AM
haha, this is the story of my life.
"This guy probably has a big hand....... eh screw it, I call!"
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 11:40 AM
I started listening to myself. Seriously.

About 5 years ago I was in a hand with a guy where I had AK. The flop was Kxx. I bet he called. The turn was a Q. He led out with a decent size bet (not a blocking bet). I said out loud "Wow. you have KQ. What a turn." And then I called and called the river bet. And yes he had KQ.

The biggest emotional problem I have in the game is letting go when I have been ahead and then suddenly am apparently behind. I feel unjustly defeated and somehow refuse to fold. However, my subconscious will often cue me as to where I stand, mostly by saying out loud what I don't want to hear. And now I listen to myself and then fold.

About a year ago I was in a hand in a tournament at the Wynn. I had two pair and was fairly certain I was going to win the hand. My opponent led out on the river and I got chips out to call. As I was about to push them forward he made a slight motion with the cards like he was going to flip over a winner. And I stopped. I said out loud "how do you have me beat here? I have a big hand." I am studying the board. He can't have a set because he had played passively the whole hand. There was no flush out there. Just a weird gutter that got there. As I started to fold he said "why do you think I have you beat?" I showed him my two pair and then I folded. He turned over his straight and we both laughed.

The other times I punt tournaments I get this emotional rush of some kind and call a big bet. The emotional reaction prevents me from rationally thinking through the problem. Once I have called I immediately know why I should have folded and I am almost always correct. Still working on this. But I think that just stepping back and allowing myself time to assess the situation is what is called for. I won't necessarily hit on the answer but maybe if I act like I have already called it will come to me... One of the things that should stand out for me is that in these cases I am often risking an inordinate amount of chips on a single pair. Another thing that happens a bit is that pre-flop or on the flop I sometimes risk a crazy amount of blinds without realizing it. Not that it isn't sometimes correct to isolate when a guy goes all-in with like 10 to 20 blinds. But there are times where I just am not thinking about it in terms of blinds.

Recently I was approaching the bubble in a bounty tourney and I raised MP with QQ to 2.5x. Guy OTB who had 3 bet repeatedly 3 bets 5x my bet. Guy in the BB who I had played with all day and made many 3-bet cold calls and then led big on the flop virtually every time called. And I am thinking BTN has nothing. BB has like TT/JJ. I can take this down now. So I get this emotional rush and shove for like 70 blinds. Guy OTB hesitates and folds (what he later claims is 77). BB calls with AA and I am out. The whole thing stunk and I am not sure I can get away from the hand if I just call pre-flop (though a J flopped and then a K on the turn). Never occurred to me that this 3 bet was unlike all the others that BB had called because it was huge.

Last edited by Mr Rick; 06-03-2019 at 11:49 AM.
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropa de Elite
...Some days I'm constantly aware of my stack size related to the blinds and every other player at the table, mine and other players image and when I face a decision I consider all available information and factors....
Just reg on these days imo...
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by erc007
Just reg on these days imo...
The days can start like that, and then...
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 07:24 PM
OP, the triggers are the same for everyone - ‘i was in front and extracting value’ then ‘that just happened and now I may be behind’.

My most heart-felt recent example was in this years local $10k main event, raising pre 6-handed late on day one with 77 calling the 3bet flopping a set extracting two streets of value then facing a donk shove from a backdoor flush. My brain screamed I was behind but it was less than a 1/2 psb to call. I called and yet I knew he had the nut flush before he turned it over.

The answer lies in range.

Use whatever time is available to put the entitlement aside and make the best attempt you can to accurately define the range of hands your opponent could have. Then make a cold rational decision as to whether you’re getting the right price to call.

And if you’re having trouble with either the range part or the rational decision part, grab a glass of red wine and read this bit about triumph and disaster (again)


Spoiler:
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too.
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster,
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make a heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And—which is more—you'll be a Man, my son!

If - Rudyard Kipling


Last edited by oldsilver; 06-03-2019 at 07:33 PM.
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 07:51 PM
Keep a journal. Every time you make what you describe as a "monkey play," mark the hand, and at the end of the day's session write it down, including the date and tournament it happened in, along with meticulous detail describing what happened. Not a Word document either. A pen and paper journal. I call mine "Suppo Plays." Read them over your morning coffee. Laugh at how stupid you acted, now that you have the benefit of hindsight. You'll make them less often, over time.

If you don't pin the problem down and prevent its escape, it's ludicrous to expect it to improve.

Also--and this may be a bit off the deep end for most--I think of the infinite other versions of myself playing poker in the infinite alternate universes where the only thing that's different is the variance/cards dealt, but where all versions of myself are united in having the same mind and decision making process. How can I maximize my $EV across the multiverse if I'm making irrational, emotion based decisions? That means millions of other copies of me are also making poor decisions--this is unacceptable, and these decisions must be avoided. (we'll call it multiverse_$EV in the future academic literature btw)
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 08:01 PM
Also, remember--one's ability to resist making plays like this--even when temptation arises, as it does for all of us from time to time--is a huge part of whatever that player's long term statistical winrate/edge is, assuming he has one.

So, in the interest of winrate maximization...
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angel zera
Also--and this may be a bit off the deep end for most--I think of the infinite other versions of myself playing poker in the infinite alternate universes where the only thing that's different is the variance/cards dealt, but where all versions of myself are united in having the same mind and decision making process. How can I maximize my $EV across the multiverse if I'm making irrational, emotion based decisions? That means millions of other copies of me are also making poor decisions--this is unacceptable, and these decisions must be avoided. (we'll call it multiverse_$EV in the future academic literature btw)
You have to keep in mind in the alternate universes there will be slight differences in environmental factors.. such as in one universe it might have a slightly higher oxygen level to another and things like how far away you are from your parent star and general mass of the planet and effect of gravity won't be exactly the same across universes.. all of this will effect your play in ways you may not expect.. ie: in one universe because there is a higher level of oxygen then thought process might be better etc so you won't be at the same level in the poker food chain across all of them, for sure you have to make appropriate adjustments for this to maximise your win-rate across all versions of you
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-03-2019 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wowsooooted
You have to keep in mind
In one universe, all anyone plays is Badeucy, and I'm an endboss
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-04-2019 , 09:01 AM
You might also be having a cognitive bias towards remembering only your ‘bad’ bluff catches.
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-05-2019 , 09:34 AM
Thanks for this thread. I made a call yesterday vs villain 1k super turbo bounty Sb 3 bet my CO open. He had shown down suited Ax and even unsuited Ax in position (instead of 3 bet). Had I just thought about what hands he was 3 betting vs me I would have snap folded QJhh.
I thought about 99% of the hands this tourn and have been trying to acheive exceptional focus thinking about every hand including those I am not involved in. It’s hard. What it has done has allowed several deep runs in the tournaments out here as well as making some snap folds based on easy reads.
Ex: raise EP...BB looks at cards and snap raises with no thought to bet size.

Exceptional focus is what I call it.
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-08-2019 , 09:04 AM
I think at times we’ve all got spewy, and it’s extremely frustrating to get deep to only punt off you’re stack. I got into the habit of putting sticky notes on my desktop with little reminders that literally say things like -Think -Don’t punt -do I have three streets of value -who is my opponent (fish? Reg?) marginal spot?..anything that may help me while in game is literally a glance away....if it’s live poker instead of sticky notes I just take the time to ask myself these questions and go over this stuff in my head along with hand analysis..

Last edited by PhuneeeMuneee; 06-08-2019 at 09:09 AM.
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-10-2019 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wowsooooted
You have to keep in mind in the alternate universes there will be slight differences in environmental factors.. such as in one universe it might have a slightly higher oxygen level to another and things like how far away you are from your parent star and general mass of the planet and effect of gravity won't be exactly the same across universes.. all of this will effect your play in ways you may not expect.. ie: in one universe because there is a higher level of oxygen then thought process might be better etc so you won't be at the same level in the poker food chain across all of them, for sure you have to make appropriate adjustments for this to maximise your win-rate across all versions of you
However if that given universe has more oxygen which enables the hero to play better than that means that everyone else in that universe is also playing better because of the heightened oxygen so he equity would be the same
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote
06-10-2019 , 10:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePokerBot
However if that given universe has more oxygen which enables the hero to play better than that means that everyone else in that universe is also playing better because of the heightened oxygen so he equity would be the same
touché
How do you restrain yourself from making dumb plays? Quote

      
m