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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 07-14-2018, 02:55 PM   #1
HawkesDave
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Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

$360 tourney.

Hero has a pretty aggressive image, and almost got stacked out-of-line when I squeeze-shoved K6cc for 17 bigs over a short-stack 4x HJ shove in the CO. Table was mostly folding to 3bs and I got called by the SB who had ATo. Good call on his part. (CO actually had AJhh). Flop 2 hearts with a club, turn club, river K and I bumped up to like 40 bigs.

V in question in this hand is a local tournament grinder, about 100k in earnings. Very aggressive. Pretty high 3b percentage. Good player from what I have seen. Starting stack sizes are about to go under 40 bigs with the next level increase and V is aware of this and I'm sure his primary goal is chip accumulation at this point.

I'm disregarding the stack sizes of the other players involved here as they're not really entirely relevant. Effective stack size between me and V is about 40-bigs. I have him covered by maybe 5-6 bigs.

Hero opens TT UTG to 2.2x. MP calls, MP+1 calls, LJ calls, and V thinks and then 3b to like 10.5x. Folds back to me and I take pause to think this through. I'm OOP and not remotely getting odds to call as a set-mine (unless I can guarantee like 2 more callers to come along). Am I crazy that flatting here seems like the worst of the 3 options based on our effective stack sizes? I think V is squeezing fairly wide here to take advantage of all the potential dead money. All the suited Aces are in his range, as are a lot of suited and unsuited broadways.

I hate the idea of flatting here OOP with the stack sizes so I decide to 4b to about 21x with the idea that I'd be OK with GII. It folds back to V and he tank-folds.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:12 PM   #2
HawkesDave
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

Sorry, in my HH I iso-shoved not squeezed. I'm sure someone would take the time to nitpick that, so yeah, already did it for you.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:50 AM   #3
3for3poker
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

Were you going to fold to a jam? This seems terrible since he is clearly jamming AK. Might as well jam yourself. Might even get JJ to fold, though I doubt it.
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:28 PM   #4
HawkesDave
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

No, I said I 4b and was ok with GII. Against this particular playerís style and with a ton of dead money available with a squeeze, I thought Vís range here was pretty wide and I didnít want to call the 3b with a very aggressive player having position.
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:07 PM   #5
Breadfish666
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

I think it’s fine with your reads on this particular villain. At worst you’re flipping against AK and you run into domination every once in a while. 40bb stack is an awkward size for 10s but you probably have to go with it if you don’t want to dwindle down. I think it looks weaker to this villain if you jam so I like the 4b.
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:18 PM   #6
HawkesDave
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

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Originally Posted by Breadfish666 View Post
I think it’s fine with your reads on this particular villain. At worst you’re flipping against AK and you run into domination every once in a while. 40bb stack is an awkward size for 10s but you probably have to go with it if you don’t want to dwindle down. I think it looks weaker to this villain if you jam so I like the 4b.
Yeah I sized my 4b to get him to fold AQ/JJ, not to give myself room to fold. Once I put in the 4b I was committed to calling a jam and hoping to see AK. I obviously wanted him to fold though.
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Old 07-15-2018, 04:00 PM   #7
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

Maybe my reading skills aren't the best and it's already in there, but was the villain's position and who was acting behind him?

In a vacuum I think 4b/gii and 4b/shove are both reasonable, maybe somewhat close since your open was UTG. If your image is LAG I can see villain thinking he's going to fold a decent chunk of your range and you'll rarely flat OOP at these stack depths anyway.
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Old 07-15-2018, 04:12 PM   #8
HawkesDave
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

V was HJ. Or maybe what I described as LJ was mp+2 and V was LJ. It was 10-handed (yes, barf). Players behind him between us weren’t very aggressive pre or post and all folded before it got back to me. All those players had similar stack sizes. Basically all the limpers were the larger stacks.

I wasn’t loose pre really. Just highly aggressive with 3bs and a few squeezes. Maybe 2-3 overlimps over 2 hours or so, if that. Never open limp. My RFI is pretty high.
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:55 PM   #9
Starpoker
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

To answer your question, yes, calling would be a train wreck here, given that on any flop with an overcard and no T, you basically have to fold to a continuation bet.

I think you played this fine, but I don't think the 4b size here matters. When you look at a hand like JJ, the bet size of the 4b doesn't matter because he can't simply call you. He is either going all in or folding, and he knows you are never folding once you 4b even if you have chips behind. All of the other hands in his range should play the same in my view.
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Old 07-15-2018, 06:00 PM   #10
HawkesDave
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

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Originally Posted by Starpoker View Post
To answer your question, yes, calling would be a train wreck here, given that on any flop with an overcard and no T, you basically have to fold to a continuation bet.

I think you played this fine, but I don't think the 4b size here matters. When you look at a hand like JJ, the bet size of the 4b doesn't matter because he can't simply call you. He is either going all in or folding, and he knows you are never folding once you 4b even if you have chips behind. All of the other hands in his range should play the same in my view.
Nah he's obviously never just calling but the 4b size may deter JJ or AQ from coming along if I'm trying to look like I hold AA or KK. It may manage to encourage him to jam AK but he has more combos of AQ and JJ than just AK so I think it's still a worthwhile play and at least I'm flipping with AK. Anything that reduces his combos of hands that are likely to continue is a good perspective when I'm holding a hand that doesn't play well against his GII range.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:51 AM   #11
daviid
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

looks like a super std jam even though the squeezing range you assigned him seems absurdly loose (dont know though havent been there).

i think 4b non allin when you cant have a 4b/f range for that sizing is pretty bad (esp vs someone competent) but lollivepokers i guess.
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Old 07-16-2018, 09:34 AM   #12
HawkesDave
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

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Originally Posted by daviid View Post
looks like a super std jam even though the squeezing range you assigned him seems absurdly loose (dont know though havent been there).

i think 4b non allin when you cant have a 4b/f range for that sizing is pretty bad (esp vs someone competent) but lollivepokers i guess.
Your feedback is well respected around here, so I'm curious to know what you feel the drawback is of a smaller 4b with a commitment to calling a 5b? You don't think a smaller 4b looks stronger than a jam here? It's not like he's ever flatting the 4b.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:26 AM   #13
con_leche
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Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post

I'm disregarding the stack sizes of the other players involved here as they're not really entirely relevant.
I don't think the above is correct.

On a 10 handed table I think one of the 3 MP flat callers is more likely to call off than the villan...
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:00 AM   #14
3for3poker
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

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Originally Posted by con_leche View Post
I don't think the above is correct.

On a 10 handed table I think one of the 3 MP flat callers is more likely to call off than the villan...
And that is why I think jamming is better.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:18 AM   #15
HawkesDave
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

Call 21x from a player leaving a bit more than that in their stack after overcalling a 2.2x open? Not arguing it's not possible but if they're flatting behind I'm probably in pretty awful shape regardless from some strangely played QQ+ that was begging for a squeeze behind, otherwise if they have AK they're probably just jamming behind.

As far as their stack sizes, I mentioned it in another post above, the overcallers all covered both me and V. I think all of them had at least twice our stack size.
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Old 07-18-2018, 03:40 AM   #16
daviid
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Re: Good 4b with No Blockers? $360 multi-day

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkesDave View Post
Your feedback is well respected around here, so I'm curious to know what you feel the drawback is of a smaller 4b with a commitment to calling a 5b? You don't think a smaller 4b looks stronger than a jam here? It's not like he's ever flatting the 4b.


sorry for the late reply. your strat in that spot evolves around exploiting your opponent to the max (make him 3b/f JJ+ for 40bb eff) and if your assumptions are correct this play will be max EV of course. however i cant rly talk exploitable strat because i think it leads to way too many assumptions that will be false a high amount of the time (esp because of the small sample sizes). so since its a ply where you are going to be absurdly unbalanced (even if you widen your range to TT+ for value) i think it will lead to problems when you want to construct ranges in certain spots. long story short, you cant have a bluffing range and the assumption that a non allin 4b generates more fold equity than a shove may or may not be true (what if he 3b/f 99 to that action?).
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