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Old 08-06-2018, 07:14 AM   #1
Stephen17
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Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

First level of a tournament 330£ Entry (bigger buy in than normal I have played like 10 220 buy ins and 2 400) so you could say I was a little nervous. Blinds 25/50 starting stack 25,000 like 4 hands in on level 1

utg +1 opens for 150 I call will 66 utg+2 small or big blind call I canít remember so 3 handed
Flop As 6c 8c
Blind check pfr makes it 400 I call,blind then check raises to 1400 pfr calls I tank and think to raise or slow play I just think I look so strong when I raise so I call and plan on raising 90% of turns (maybe a mistake here to flat I donít know )

Turn 4d
Blind 2000 pfr call I make it 6000 blind folds pfr calls

River 7s
As 6c 8c 4d 7s
Pfr bombs it in for like 17k

I feel kind of sick and tank for like 5 mins I must also add that I drove like a hour away from my local to play this tourney which is abit bigger than my weekly 50-100 buy in. I did not wanna drive home pissed off that I played for 5 mins and couldnít fold a set. The pfr was talking earlier about 1k buy ins and just come back from Vegas so I assumed he was a pro as he talking to a few of the players and they all knew him.

I was thinking that thereís not a lot of players that are going to bluff 300 Bb on level 1 obviously some but not a lot lol. I just thought he had to have ace 5 of clubs obviously he can have any clubs but I thought Is he really going to do this with just a flush draw on level 1. So at the time I though thereís not many bluffs he can have when he bombs 300 Bb +in on the river. After re thinking the hand later I realised he could of had 910 of clubs as value. At the time I just though he had he had to have ace 5 of clubs I tanked and the. Folded

Also I wanted to call so bad because The way he bombed it in it just felt weak but my balls shrunk and I just thought how can he just get his whole stack in this early on a bluff this early

He then showed me his hand I donít now how to do the spoiler so I will post hand tomorrow

Also I learnt a lot from this hand any feedback would be great if you see any mistakes how i Analsed the hand. Let me know.
Thanks
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Old 08-06-2018, 09:27 AM   #2
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

I might just fold pre. There are a lot of players behind us who can come in behind or squeeze, so I’m not entirely convinced 66 is a profitable flat here.

Anyways, I don’t mind either decision to flat the flop. You could also obviously raid, but I prefer a flat to keep villain’s ranges wider.

On the turn, the raise is good. Snap call on river.

He only has one combo that makes sense that beats you. If he has it, tough ****, but he could easily have a bluff here, and you just can’t fold.

Honestly, my biggest piece of advice is that if spots like this take you out of your comfort zone that much, don’t play in the tournament. I get that it sucks to drive all the way out and bust 5 min in, but if you’re not prepared to do that, you’ll get taken advantage of, and you’re probably better off not playing at all.
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:28 AM   #3
Stephen17
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

thanks for the reply.

I knew someone was gonna say that about being out my comfort zone but we all must take risks to get the bankroll up.

66 500 bb seems fine from any position to me .
I am prepared to call my stack off in any situation with worst hands but after 5 mins in i just couldn't see the guy bluffing it all. yeah he has 2 value hands i believe ace 5c, 9 10c

but should we always call even if theres not many hands that beat us. i thought in the moment that i was loosing to only one hand ace 5 of clubs but i still folded and the psychological thoughts come into my mind that theres not many guys that will bluff of there stack 5 mins in that defiantly made me lean to a fold more.

I mean couldn't imagine the guy just calling on a flush draw it seems way to early to start chasing a draw but its probably standard as he thinks he can get more chips when he hits and bluff certain rivers.

you say he can easily have a bluff here but he can only have a naked flush draw all pair flush draw/ straight draws turn into 2 pair (ace4c ace7c)
the chances of him having just a random flush draw seem really unlikely to me

he says im only go show this one and it only worked because im a thinking player lol and shows q9c
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Old 08-06-2018, 10:31 AM   #4
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

hi,

i think pre is fine, we have 500 bigs.

on the flop I'm more leaning towards a raise of PFR cbet cause of two clubs an the A. villain(s) can't range us on set here exclusivly, which is always nice. odds are hero is not getting another set this tourney, so go for value.

now it gets interesting with the checkraise: PFR calls and hero... well, reraise now turns our hand face up as a value hand imo. but flatting on this wet board, kinda meh, too. I don't have advice on how to play this really, but at this point we have to think about PFRs range. what hands can he flat here to give hero such a great price on calling? Don't know about PRFs tendecies, but AA & 88 have to reraise imo. AKc/A8c might flat, might be other XXc, but after the turn action I weigh his range heavily towards some AXc.

on the turn as i understand this happens: Blind leads for 2K, PFR calls, we 6K and blind now folds (???!!). that's weird. and PFR flats once again (but one might read your post as: blind checks, PFR 2K, we 6K, blind folds, PFR calls). but since I think the first action is what happend I'll go from there: I think we need to raise bigger. when it gets to us the pot is 8.7K and we have 23K behind. I think I'd jam here. Of course, blind can have 75c or any 75 and PFR AA, but that is such a small parts of their ranges. and we will probably get called if PFR really has AXc.

(of course this changes if I read the action wrong)

on the river call as played, we even beat some of PFRs value range, considering our thoughts on turn action.
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Old 08-06-2018, 12:53 PM   #5
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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Originally Posted by poloplaya1414 View Post
I might just fold pre. There are a lot of players behind us who can come in behind or squeeze, so Iím not entirely convinced 66 is a profitable flat here.

Anyways, I donít mind either decision to flat the flop. You could also obviously raid, but I prefer a flat to keep villainís ranges wider.

On the turn, the raise is good. Snap call on river.

He only has one combo that makes sense that beats you. If he has it, tough ****, but he could easily have a bluff here, and you just canít fold.

Honestly, my biggest piece of advice is that if spots like this take you out of your comfort zone that much, donít play in the tournament. I get that it sucks to drive all the way out and bust 5 min in, but if youíre not prepared to do that, youíll get taken advantage of, and youíre probably better off not playing at all.
Mostly this. @ 500 bigs, I see wider EP opens so there are a few straights that conceivably get there OTT (plus 88 & AA) - so there are a few more holdings that beat you. <--- NOT enough to fold OTR!

However, as you posted your action, I can literally feel your uncomfort and I'll bet $$$ that so did the V in this hand who was quite willing to go busto and rebuy. So, polo's last paragraph is spot on.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:04 PM   #6
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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Originally Posted by Stephen17 View Post
thanks for the reply.

I knew someone was gonna say that about being out my comfort zone but we all must take risks to get the bankroll up.
I'm not going to argue with that logic, but then you have to actually take the risks. Don't make scared folds in situations like this. If you are, then don't play. Scared money don't make money.


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Originally Posted by Stephen17 View Post
66 500 bb seems fine from any position to me .
Small PPs actually start to get harder to play once you get really deep. If we were 100 BBs deep, I'd feel a lot better about flatting here. But 500 BBs deep, we start to get into reverse implied odds situations that are not favorable for a hand like 66 that can at best make a small set/boat. We will run into a lot of situations (like the one in this very hand) where stacking off with our set is a very dicey proposition. Given that we will very likely end up OOP being UTG+1, I don't think this is a slam dunk flat. It's probably ok.

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I am prepared to call my stack off in any situation with worst hands but after 5 mins in i just couldn't see the guy bluffing it all. yeah he has 2 value hands i believe ace 5c, 9 10c

but should we always call even if theres not many hands that beat us. i thought in the moment that i was loosing to only one hand ace 5 of clubs but i still folded and the psychological thoughts come into my mind that theres not many guys that will bluff of there stack 5 mins in that defiantly made me lean to a fold more.

I mean couldn't imagine the guy just calling on a flush draw it seems way to early to start chasing a draw but its probably standard as he thinks he can get more chips when he hits and bluff certain rivers.

you say he can easily have a bluff here but he can only have a naked flush draw all pair flush draw/ straight draws turn into 2 pair (ace4c ace7c)
the chances of him having just a random flush draw seem really unlikely to me

he says im only go show this one and it only worked because im a thinking player lol and shows q9c
Yes we should call here because we are at the top of our rang and Villain can easily get to the river with a ton of worse hands like busted draws. He only needs to bluff a very small % of his missed draws to be overbluffing, and if we're folding a hand like 66 that's basically at the top of our range, we will get taken advantage of.
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Old 08-06-2018, 01:05 PM   #7
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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Originally Posted by Beachman42 View Post
Mostly this. @ 500 bigs, I see wider EP opens so there are a few straights that conceivably get there OTT (plus 88 & AA) - so there are a few more holdings that beat you. <--- NOT enough to fold OTR!

However, as you posted your action, I can literally feel your uncomfort and I'll bet $$$ that so did the V in this hand who was quite willing to go busto and rebuy. So, polo's last paragraph is spot on.
He almost definitely jams turn with 88 and AA IMO.
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:04 AM   #8
Stephen17
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

thanks for all the replies !

so what youre saying is if theres very little combos of value we should always call with the top of our range. this seems abit robotic to me.

do you think being so early in the tourney should help my decision ie my thinking at the time was its just so early to bluff all them bb lol thats what really made me fold, is this stupid thinking ?

Also do you think the pfr played his hand fine is it profitable to call on the turn oop for all he knows i could of had 75 suited or was going to snap him off with 2 pair he has no info on me.

At the time i really just thoughts hes got to have ace 5 suited i mean minimum he must of put me on was top 2 so what do you think of his shove i think in the pfr eyes i look so strong so why would he think he can get me off my hand if that makes sense this is why i also thought he cant be bluffing as i look so strong.(this was kind of my main thinking at the time) That i look so strong so i why is this guy gonna bluff 300+ bb into me 5 mins into the tourney surely you can wait for a better spot lol

I was trying to put myself in his head like this random guy has raised into 2 people in a big pot really considering it was 5 mins in and now my plan is to bluff him.

I just couldn’t see it happening 5 mins in a tourney this random guy is repping a massive hand that could be a calling station for all I know and now I’m going to try get himOff his hand by putting my whole stack in after playing 3 hands. This is what my decision come down to haha I was screaming in my head he can’t be bluffing for this reason



do you get what i mean when Im talking about this psychological aspect. what do you think of my thoughts here ?

Last edited by Stephen17; 08-07-2018 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:46 AM   #9
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

Yeah I also have a hard time calling it off when I don't think a reasonable Villain can expect any FE from Hero's range in this spot. It's a facking re entry liveament and Hero has two pair AT A MINIMUM.
Idk, it's a gross spot, V doesn't have much for value, but he also doesn't have much for bluffs, he'd have to be calling turn with KQcc/KJcc and shoveling it in otr with terrible blocker characteristics into a strong range.

Easy flat pre btw.
Raise turn bigger.
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:42 AM   #10
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

In spots like this where there are such few value combos, a player only needs to overplay a very small % of his non-value hands as bluffs to be ovdrbluffing. I think against the vast majority of the player pool, you’re more likely to see someone bluffing here than have the goods.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:23 AM   #11
Stephen17
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

I think the the turn raise maybe 8.5/10 k would of been better

But yeah that’s what really made me fold as I looks so strong and villain tried to get me of a strong holding this early it seems like a loosing strategy to aim to bluff people of strong hands this early lol that’s why I couldn’t see him bluffing if it was level 2/3 or something I think i would of called.

And btw the blind said after he had top 2 ace 8

Thanks for all the replies it’s really amazing how you can break down a hand and have many aspects coming into it . I deffo made my decision on the psychological side in this hand
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:37 PM   #12
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

In any given spot when facing a bet or raise, there's always some X% chance that Villain was feeling himself and decided to just make a huge bluff.

What that X% is varies a lot depending on the situation, the player, the action, etc. but you can never completely rule it out.

In cases like this where the % of value combos is super low, that X% chance that villain is bluffing doesn't need to be very high to make this a call. And when there are pretty obvious missed draws out there that could be bluffing, I think it's a no-brainer call.

Yeah our range looks super strong, and yeah bluffing into us here with no blockers is a pretty bold move that I probably wouldn't recommend, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to do it.
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Old 08-07-2018, 02:58 PM   #13
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

To those who are saying fold preflop, just unreg then. We are always going to play this preflop this deep EVERY TIME, let's move on.

Flop: Fine (I agree with your reasoning)
Turn: Fine (I might raise bigger here)
River: Puke
(I think it's one of those spots where the villain going to be very polarized.) It's a ****ty run out for your hand. There are a lot of hands with clubs that will call the turn. But I would lean towards a fold in this spot most of the time. If this is a re-entry tournament I might lean towards a call.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:01 PM   #14
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

Thanks for the info yeah I agree you can never rule out a bluff at anytime.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:05 PM   #15
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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To those who are saying fold preflop, just unreg then. We are always going to play this preflop this deep EVERY TIME, let's move on.

Flop: Fine (I agree with your reasoning)
Turn: Fine (I might raise bigger here)
River: Puke
(I think it's one of those spots where the villain going to be very polarized.) It's a ****ty run out for your hand. There are a lot of hands with clubs that will call the turn. But I would lean towards a fold in this spot most of the time. If this is a re-entry tournament I might lean towards a call.
I know lol terrible run out, I know this dosnt mean anything in the hand but I just drove a hour waited around like 20 mins and had one bullet with me so I hated the shove, as I was really excited to play
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:16 PM   #16
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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Originally Posted by poloplaya1414 View Post
In any given spot when facing a bet or raise, there's always some X% chance that Villain was feeling himself and decided to just make a huge bluff.

What that X% is varies a lot depending on the situation, the player, the action, etc. but you can never completely rule it out.

In cases like this where the % of value combos is super low, that X% chance that villain is bluffing doesn't need to be very high to make this a call. And when there are pretty obvious missed draws out there that could be bluffing, I think it's a no-brainer call.

Yeah our range looks super strong, and yeah bluffing into us here with no blockers is a pretty bold move that I probably wouldn't recommend, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to do it.

I heard you the first time bro, and completely understand the thought process that would support calling here, but I don't agree on the combo analysis.

Could you enumerate what V's "many/pretty obvious/ton of worse" bluffs are here?
He opens from UTG1 so on flop his f draws (that are busted otr) are limited to J9cc+KTcc AND he has to get to river with those. Jhi and Qhi fds are in a really dicey spot against a Hero's turn raise, even against this tiny butchered sizing, and some of them might even fold to BB's turn lead (again they're getting good odds but are very likely to be dominated MW when the Ax on board is NOT the Ac.)
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:30 PM   #17
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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I heard you the first time bro, and completely understand the thought process that would support calling here, but I don't agree on the combo analysis.

Could you enumerate what V's "many/pretty obvious/ton of worse" bluffs are here?
He opens from UTG1 so on flop his f draws (that are busted otr) are limited to J9cc+KTcc AND he has to get to river with those. Jhi and Qhi fds are in a really dicey spot against a Hero's turn raise, even against this tiny butchered sizing, and some of them might even fold to BB's turn lead (again they're getting good odds but are very likely to be dominated MW when the Ax on board is NOT the Ac.)
I heard you the first time too bro...

"Many" and "ton of worse" are relative terms, but he could easily have J9, JT, Q9, QT, QJ, KT, KJ, KQ, A3, A4, A7, AT, AJ, AQ, AK. Maybe that's not "a ton" but when the literal only 2 value combos I can think of that plausibly make sense are Ac5c and and Tc9c, that's a relatively large number of combos.

Yeah a lot of those hands may not get to the river, may not jam river because they have showdown value, etc. but it's not like this villain is taking this line 100% of the time they have Ac5c or Tc9c either.
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Old 08-07-2018, 06:18 PM   #18
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

Hm, well appreciate your clarification re: your usage of adjectives related to quantity. I guess we will have to disagree on the approximate frequency that V reaches the river with these hands and/or decides to bluff them.

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there's always some X% chance that Villain was feeling himself
Can I get some credit for refraining to troll this? Mature decision on my part imo.
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:15 PM   #19
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

I mean you only need to be good 1/3 times. Even if we assume villain takes this line every time with T9 and A5, we only need villain to get take this line 1/15 times with the other combos I listed. It’s a spot where I’d be shocked if the population wasn’t overbluffing
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:05 PM   #20
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

I don't think alot of players are going to bluff 340 bb into a player whos range is super strong 5 mins into a tourney IMO. especially where he has only 2 value hands and has no info on me

I get what you're saying about the math but it takes a certain type of sicko to try get a unknown of minimum top 2 3 hands into a tourney and risking his whole stack seems like a very ambitious bluff to me.

not alot of players go crazy early in a tournament never mind this crazy this is why i had to make the fold and im happy with it. I think all this should be a massive part of the decision here
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Old 08-09-2018, 06:22 AM   #21
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

Hi Stephen. I like how you played the hand up until the river.

This is the £300 "Super High Roller" on Saturday at the Goliath right?

I have a decent amount of experience and success around the £100-300 UK tournament level and know the regulars quite well (at least the ones that play in the Midlands). I think you are wrong about the idea that you repeat a few times - that players aren't going to bluff off in level 1 ("go crazy" as you call it).

Firstly, as an aside, I don't think you can characterise this shove as "crazy" because there was some thinking behind it.

Secondly, in general, I find a lot of live regs at these levels are disrespectful of the first bullet. They almost can't wait to re-enter, and treat it as a conversational badge of honour. They are willing to go broke. If this guy is in Vegas playing $1k buy-ins, then a) he plays all the time, so there's plenty more tournaments if this one doesn't work out and b) being in for £660 isn't going to faze him.

I've been in your spot. It's tough, but just focus on the poker.
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Old 08-09-2018, 08:48 PM   #22
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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Hi Stephen. I like how you played the hand up until the river.

This is the £300 "Super High Roller" on Saturday at the Goliath right?

I have a decent amount of experience and success around the £100-300 UK tournament level and know the regulars quite well (at least the ones that play in the Midlands). I think you are wrong about the idea that you repeat a few times - that players aren't going to bluff off in level 1 ("go crazy" as you call it).

Firstly, as an aside, I don't think you can characterise this shove as "crazy" because there was some thinking behind it.

Secondly, in general, I find a lot of live regs at these levels are disrespectful of the first bullet. They almost can't wait to re-enter, and treat it as a conversational badge of honour. They are willing to go broke. If this guy is in Vegas playing $1k buy-ins, then a) he plays all the time, so there's plenty more tournaments if this one doesn't work out and b) being in for £660 isn't going to faze him.

I've been in your spot. It's tough, but just focus on the poker.

Yeah I hear you, Iím not saying they will big bluff early ever but 5 mins in bluffing in a super strong range seemed very ambitious especially how most of you are saying snap call, the villain should be thinking the same. That I could snap call. But as you said had no care for first bullet.As this my 2nd biggest buy in and itís clearly a different field from 50£ entry so I need to adjust and know players are gonna put the pressure on straight away.

I think I just levelled myself Into folding because I look super strong and he looks bluffy. And he knows it looks bluffy,My hand has to be strong and now heís gonna try make me fold it where I could be a calling station or I could have a bankroll of 100k and also have no care for the first bullet.

Yes ďsuperĒ high roller lol not just the high roller the super high roller for 300£
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:06 PM   #23
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

lol super high roller $400
do you guys also have .25/.50 cash tables over there?
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:38 PM   #24
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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lol super high roller $400
do you guys also have .25/.50 cash tables over there?
stupid name i know lmao
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:04 AM   #25
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Re: Fold or call ? 330£ tourney 5 mins in

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lol super high roller $400
do you guys also have .25/.50 cash tables over there?
Bonomo flew over to play it :-)

The main event (£125) is the largest field tournament outside of Vegas, 7.5k entrants.

The whole thing is branded as a Microstakes WSOP, hence the Super High Roller title of the most expensive event!

Stephen - I think people are saying snap call to mean - "it's a call", I don't think anyone can seriously expect you to make an instant decision either way.

I also don't mind if you decide it is a fold as your read takes away combinations of bluffs, it's just clear from your post that you were thinking unhelpful things that had nothing to do with the hand.

I think this hand is a net positive for you. It's an absolutely huge learning point that will benefit you in the future; if you're going to travel to play these things, either be comfortable firing the second bullet or be comfortable getting knocked out after 5 minutes. Your mental state is really important, not enough players think about this.

As an example, 8 days earlier on the Friday night (Day 1b of the £225 25/50) I arrived at 7pm and was already Alternate #25. That would have got me in at the start of Level 5, which is still 83bbs. But the more I thought about it, the more annoyed I was that I was missing the deeper stacked levels (where people gamble far too much) and the more annoyed I was that I didn't buy-in ahead of time online. I would have definitely put myself into spots like you were where I was mentally thinking "I've waited 2.5 hours to sit down I don't want to bust straight away."

So I just unregged and played cash for a while and then left. Annoying because I was looking forward to the tournament and am +EV, (and I couldn't play Day 1C) but if my head isn't going to be right I'm not the kind of guy that enjoys lighting £225 on fire.
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