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Mid-High Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of mid-high stakes MTT strategy

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Old 01-23-2010, 02:24 PM   #201
NeverScaredB
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by unrealzeal View Post
i don't understand why people don't understand me, if this was face up poker zj has TT, sizing is everything...pf raise, drawing price on flop, isolation price on turn, shove river, all consistent with TT...what's difficult about that? how could that possibly not make any sense? I don't get it...online the bet sizing is all we have to read so why not read it to deterimine what hand(s) it represents?
It's not that we don't understand you. It's that you're a moron.

Grabbing on to one little detail (Justin's bet-sizing) of an extremely complex hand, and then saying that Justin is bad enough to unbalance his sizing to the point where you can narrow his range to one hand, and then saying words like "if this was face up poker ZJ has TT" and talking about how he should raise bigger with TT to "price out drawing hands" but smaller with AA to "not lose his customer" is, well, moronic.

The games you are commenting on are played at a level far above your head. You do not understand what is going on at any point in this hand. Please, stop ruining the few good threads that come to HSMTT by posting nonsense in them. We're trying to have an interesting discussion and you're clogging it up with bull****.

Thanks, B.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:27 PM   #202
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

lol...my bad the ten came on the river, all week i've been thinking AT7 two spade flop with 8 on river, now it's a definite call and the way i would read this is pf...whether he's drawing or made pf his pf raise is indicating made hand like QQ just gotta figure out if he is FOS or not...but i really doesn't matter b/c most of his draw are not suited in spades and we beat QQ so this has to be a call...we only lose to about 30% of his range he may have luckboxed with the T since QJ is a good bluffing hand deep

i dunno anything about anything but i'm not putting anyone laggy enough to be able to get away with this pf raise size with AA/KK so i give that negiligible weight

Last edited by unrealzeal; 01-23-2010 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:28 PM   #203
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

unrealzeal
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:34 PM   #204
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by unrealzeal View Post
lol...my bad the ten came on the river, all week i've been thinking AT7 two spade flop with 8 on river, now it's a definite call and the way i would read this is pf...whether he's drawing or made pf his pf raise is indicating made hand like QQ just gotta figure out if he is FOS or not...but i really doesn't matter b/c most of his draw are not suited in spades and we beat QQ so this has to be a call...we only lose to about 30% of his range he may have luckboxed with the T since QJ is a good bluffing hand deep
stop ****ing posting you gawdamn scrub. NSB just layed it out for you plain and simple. just......STOP.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:39 PM   #205
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

Awesome hand/thread, a great read. I just find it amusing that a level account made it to 7k posts :/
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:40 PM   #206
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by unrealzeal View Post
lol...my bad the ten came on the river, all week i've been thinking AT7 two spade flop with 8 on river, now it's a definite call and the way i would read this is pf...whether he's drawing or made pf his pf raise is indicating made hand like QQ just gotta figure out if he is FOS or not...but i really doesn't matter b/c most of his draw are not suited in spades and we beat QQ so this has to be a call...we only lose to about 30% of his range he may have luckboxed with the T since QJ is a good bluffing hand deep

i dunno anything about anything but i'm not putting anyone laggy enough to be able to get away with this pf raise size with AA/KK so i give that negiligible weight
stop posting please
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:42 PM   #207
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

i suck at reading hands...i post advice on wrong hand a lot...very sorry maybe thread can be edited...dunno

bet $100 at 4:1 with 2% to ZJ

KQs quote to book
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:44 PM   #208
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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I never said you shouldn't 4 bet 166 BB's deep 6 handed.

I'm not going to detail why I think a certain play is optimal or not against me specifically for obvious reasons.
I don't see how 4betting you in this spot can't be optimal if we balance our range accordingly.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:51 PM   #209
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

This 4bet discussion blows my mind. After hours of head-assplode I was convinced ZJ was leveling, especially after the whole "I can't tell you why, but something that seems ******ed against most good players is, well, the only way to play versus me." Then I remembered that the OP, who is in fact a v good player, actually did flat oop 150 bb deep. Then Ansky confirmed it was fine. WTF am I missing and who will enlighten me with a clear answer as to why a flat OOP vs a beast with AK is clearly better than 4betting?
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:52 PM   #210
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by unrealzeal View Post
i suck at reading hands...i post advice on wrong hand a lot...very sorry maybe thread can be edited...dunno

bet $100 at 4:1 with 2% to ZJ

KQs quote to book
u going to escrow?
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:53 PM   #211
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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This 4bet discussion blows my mind. After hours of head-assplode I was convinced ZJ was leveling, especially after the whole "I can't tell you why, but something that seems ******ed against most good players is, well, the only way to play versus me." Then I remembered that the OP, who is in fact a v good player, actually did flat oop 150 bb deep. Then Ansky confirmed it was fine. WTF am I missing and who will enlighten me with a clear answer as to why a flat OOP vs a beast with AK is clearly better than 4betting.
basically this. im just assuming its a huge level at this point and ZJ wants to somehow reduce the times he gets 4 bet.
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Old 01-23-2010, 03:06 PM   #212
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by unrealzeal View Post
i suck at reading hands...i post advice on wrong hand a lot...very sorry maybe thread can be edited...dunno

bet $100 at 4:1 with 2% to ZJ

KQs quote to book
Booked.
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Old 01-23-2010, 03:08 PM   #213
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

Same. That part didn't make much sense to me. Aside from that, this thread has been awesome to follow along with and I really hope that results are eventually posted.
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Old 01-23-2010, 03:10 PM   #214
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by unrealzeal View Post
i suck at reading hands...i post advice on wrong hand a lot...very sorry maybe thread can be edited...dunno

bet $100 at 4:1 with 2% to ZJ

KQs quote to book
booooooked
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:16 PM   #215
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

stack depth is a major reason i dont like the 4bet, plus the lack of history. its not like ZeeJustin is a korean red pro that will peel your 4bet in position with any two suited cards, he's probably folding too much of his range off the get-go for AK to work as a strict value 4bet. and if he jams you have to fold, obviously.

i'm not saying you should never 4bet, I just think in the situation described it's better to balance your 4bets with J5s and KK+ when you dont have any history with the opponent and it's early in a highroller donkament.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:24 PM   #216
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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stack depth is a major reason i dont like the 4bet, plus the lack of history. its not like ZeeJustin is a korean red pro that will peel your 4bet in position with any two suited cards, he's probably folding too much of his range off the get-go for AK to work as a strict value 4bet. and if he jams you have to fold, obviously.
[ ] Obviously

Quote:
i'm not saying you should never 4bet, I just think in the situation described it's better to balance your 4bets with J5s and KK+ when you dont have any history with the opponent and it's early in a highroller donkament.
[ ] Don't have any history with the opponent

In situations where you think your opponent is 5betting a narrow enough range that you can't 4bet/call with AK (which isn't the case IMO, as implied above), AKo is an infinitely better hand to 4bet/fold than J5s.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:54 PM   #217
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

"When in position, being deepstacked should increase your 3 betting range, not decrease it. And if I'm increasing my bluff range, I have to inrease my value range as well."

ZJ quote^^^^ this isnt nessecarily true.For example if someone folds to a lot of 3bets then i would 3bet him more as a bluff and less as value and im definetly more inclined to slowplay a big pair.

Last edited by aaaaaaaa; 01-23-2010 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:56 PM   #218
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by Todd Terry View Post
In situations where you think your opponent is 5betting a narrow enough range that you can't 4bet/call with AK (which isn't the case IMO, as implied above), AKo is an infinitely better hand to 4bet/fold than J5s.
Just because we would rather have AKo than J5s when four-bet/folding, does not mean it is better to four-bet/fold AKo than J5s.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:57 PM   #219
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

I feel like I'd rather 4b a range of AK and air (which will have the same # of combos and frequencies as AA/KK/air) in situations like this OOP vs very tough players. I also am not necessarily advocating a 4b/fold because I don't necessarily think zeejustin is only 5 betting AA/KK and in fact may never be 5 betting in this spot ever to keep his range balanced for when he flats. I think I like flatting KK/AA better vs opponents like this.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:59 PM   #220
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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This is the opposite of what is true.

As stack sizes approach infinity, your goal when playing out of position should be to keep the pot smaller, and vice versa when in position.

Having a 4 bet range oop 10,000 BB deep would be a theoretical disaster.
same can be said for 3b OOP.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:10 PM   #221
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Just because we would rather have AKo than J5s when four-bet/folding, does not mean it is better to four-bet/fold AKo than J5s.
Just because you write something that appears to take issue with what I wrote, doesn't mean it actually does. Fairly sure I didn't say it was better to 4bet/fold AK because I'd rather have it when 4bet/folding. There are other reasons as well.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:27 PM   #222
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Originally Posted by Todd Terry View Post
Just because you write something that appears to take issue with what I wrote, doesn't mean it actually does. Fairly sure I didn't say it was better to 4bet/fold AK because I'd rather have it when 4bet/folding. There are other reasons as well.
So we're saying the same thing. Neat.

Other reasons for what?
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:27 PM   #223
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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same can be said for 3b OOP.
Correct. Against a GTO player that raises the button, you should probably never 3B 4,000 BB deep.

Although it is entirely possible there's a stack size so big (100k deep?) where you should jam AA and fold every other hand. It's unclear exactly how important position is super deep when played GTO. It might be so important there's no way to overcome it.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:29 PM   #224
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaaaaaaa View Post
"When in position, being deepstacked should increase your 3 betting range, not decrease it. And if I'm increasing my bluff range, I have to inrease my value range as well."

ZJ quote^^^^ this isnt nessecarily true.For example if someone folds to a lot of 3bets then i would 3bet him more as a bluff and less as value and im definetly more inclined to slowplay a big pair.
Obv I'm talking vs someone competent. You can disagree with every general statement if you want to talk about extreme opponent tendencies.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:54 PM   #225
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Re: First hand of PCA Highroller

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Correct. Against a GTO player that raises the button, you should probably never 3B 4,000 BB deep.

Although it is entirely possible there's a stack size so big (100k deep?) where you should jam AA and fold every other hand. It's unclear exactly how important position is super deep when played GTO. It might be so important there's no way to overcome it.
Pretty sure the first thing you said isn't true. 100% sure the second thing you said isn't true.
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